Jocko Podcast 236 w/ Jeff Higgs: You Will Get Beat Down. The Projects, SEALS, and Martial Arts

this is Jocko podcast number 236 with
echo Charles and me Jocko Willing good evening echo good evening when I went
through basic SEAL training there were two people recognized with an award at
the end of training the first award was for the honor man and the honor man is
the guy in the class I think it's for the best sort of overall performance
which is mostly physical running swimming obstacle course pull-ups
sit-ups or whatever whatever other physical events you do life-saving and
not tying in buddy breathing and pool competency and you kind of have to just
do good at everything and not just good you have to do really good and
everything it seems like the honor man is gonna be one of those people who did
some kind of athletics and in high school maybe even college in my class
the honor man was a complete badass his name was Keith Chimaera total stud he
and I don't remember everything about buds but I remember that he won just
about everything although there was one other guy that was always right there
with him but somehow keith must have edged him out enough times to become the
honor man I never was close enough to the front of the pack to knew to know
which of those two guys want but obviously it must have been Keith
because he was just pretty much savage at everything and even after SEAL
training he he pushed himself hard tried to maintain that edge and after his
first tour at a team he went back to Budds to be an instructor and on January
10th 1997 keith was practicing breath holds
during an evolution with the students in the dive tower and the other instructors
were well they were working with the students and they were running the
evolution and they weren't tracking Keith who was down at the bottom of the
50-foot tower holding his breath and at some point at some point he passed out
and because he was just sitting down there almost in a meditative way no one
really noticed that he had passed out he took on water by the time the other
instructors recognized what had happened he was unconscious and he never he never
regained consciousness and he ended up dying the next day January 11th 1997 a better man than me the other person the
other award that gets given out at the end of buds is called the fire in the
gut award and I I don't know if there's some kind of official definition for
this award but it seems like the award was given to the individual that had to
dig the deepest to get through the training and who in doing so also
inspired and motivated the rest of the class and in my class cost 177 that was
another badass man a guy by the name of Jeff Higgs and his
journey to buds to basic SEAL training and through basic SEAL training is a
pretty incredible story and because of that you know we're we're brothers but
we're brothers not only because we went to buds together not only because we
served at SEAL team one together but also through jiu-jitsu I'm I'm I'm
pretty sure we both started the jiu-jitsu journey the same exact day and
we are connected through our jiu-jitsu lineage because Jeff Higgs eventually
got his black belt he gave the black belt – Dean Lister Dean Lister gave the
black belt to me and I guess we should include that
there's also a connected lineage here to echo Charles who then received his black
belt from me and it's been a while but it's an honor to have Jeff here with me
today to share his experiences his knowledge his outlook and his lessons
learned in life Jeffrey hey thanks for having me thanks for coming all man
always good always good to see you to hear you I heard you at some pretty I
heard your voice at some pretty traumatic times and in my life so it's
always good to to sit down with you obviously we trained a ton but let's
start at the beginning but started young Jeff Higgs where were you born I was
born in Rams you're in North Carolina it's a town like almost smack-dab in the
middle of the state in rural area and what was uh what was the situation there
no like what was your mom and dad doing there what was scenario
at the time my parents were separated so I was you know I was you know my mom had
me there and moved back to New York when I was about three so was she was she a
New Yorker originally no my mom's from that that town and where was your dad
from my dad was born in the Bronx grew up in Harlem and so then so they had
they moved down there together or where they already split up and she took you
down yeah they were split up and I wasn't born yet so I was born down there
the rest of my family was born in in New York and then and then you moved back to
New York at what age three my mom moved back so at this point I hadn't really
met my father and my mom moves back to New York and then it was a kind of a
whole family issue thing that I wouldn't want to get into publicly but my dad got
custody of me and ended up growing there with my father and going to my mother's
back and forth on weekends mm-hmm and then whereabouts in New York where
you live in so I grew up on Staten Island in a place called West Brighton
projects so that's where I lived with my father and my mom lived in another
project called Park Hill projects so a lot of people are familiar with that
Stapleton Park a hill all right next to each other like the wu-tang clan is from
Stapleton from from West Brighton Mark mahomes area there was like the force
MDS there was some people who had to come out of that area that had gotten
Fame and then like I remember when I was a kid and I would take the train down to
the city and we would go by you know I'm coming down from New England from
Connecticut you know whereas in the sticks you know I grew up on a dirt road
and so we'd be on the train me and my buddies and you'd be going through the
projects for it's probably it seemed like about maybe 20 minutes of riding
the train where it's just a building building bill
building you can tell that they're in rough shape and you know I would always
be sitting there on this train you know coming in from a really rural area and
looking in there thinking that looks rough
yeah the old projects very much the same in the northeast area you know there are
rough areas so what did your dad do for a living
my dad worked with like housing so he didn't know I have too much education
but um you know he did what he could he worked in the housing department so
he worked in the flight for the projects for the city like you know what I
remember like as a kid he would take me into these uh big boiler rooms like we'd
go down underneath the building and you know for it's winter in New York you
have these boilers that heat the buildings and the boilers are huge you
know you can see the fire in there and you'd show me how to you know show me
the gauges and all that and how to operate it's pretty cool and and you
what I know you have at least a sister what else do you have for siblings I
have three older brothers and two older sisters so I'm the youngest the youngest
yes we're all that were all of you
co-located in the same house with your dad yes you know there are all kinds of
situations going on there so I'm not really gonna divulge of my family is to
writing a book or so yeah but but so it was pretty much some of the kids that
were around some of the time year around sounds like you said weekends with your
mom but the rest of time with your dad yeah and for the most part my my
brothers and sisters we were with my father okay and I'd visit my mom on the
weekends and then what were you doing like what were your interests what was
going to school like okay as a kid I was very thin and I had like an an incident
happened like I guess like in second grade or so I got really sick like I got
sick in front of a bunch of people in school and I was just really
embarrassed by it and I didn't want to get sick again so I stopped eating a lot
so I was really thin but besides that and that and that went on for a long
time I would so much so what grade was that
that's like second grade so you got you mean when you say you got sick you mean
you threw up in front of a bunch of people yeah we were doing like this play
like The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe so I've got and I was just I told the
teacher I'm like I do not feel good and she just let me sat sit there and then I
was like they put out a bucket in front of me this is New York in like the late
seventies really and then it came out just started you know going at it right
there and everyone in the class just scattered and they're like just like
point that mean and it was just like is it I couldn't do anything you know it's
like I had no control and the body was just doing what I was doing and I was uh
I just kind of toned down my eating and I would eat like just a piece of bread
in the day but I mean besides that I was uh you know really bookish read a lot of
comic books encyclopedias I was just reading all the time and pretty much
like pretty much a nerd you know I would walk around and that was that's why I
was a target in that kind of neighborhood you're definitely gonna be
a target mm-hmm you know I used to have I used to carry this book in my pocket
called the golden guide Gotham guide golden guide you can still find him and
I even bought the book because you know just for a nostalgia sake but it's a
little book of spiders of North America so that you know peevish decorum
this is spider-man because I would I would come up you know I'm like this
little kid like oh that's electrode Ekta smacked hands and like saying all these
species names of these arachnids different types of arthropods and people
were like this kid and I would collect spiders and go down and get ants
and putting the web it was like pretty twisted yes looking back on it look but
that's got to completely isolate you from like other kids especially in the
projects yeah it's kind of weird especially like my dad said I was creepy you you don't do you think that like
when you were sick in front of all those people when you kind of got called out
it's funny cuz we're sitting here laughing about that but that kind of
stuff leaves a mark on kids right yeah it leaves a mark on kids do you think
that left a mark do you think that's what made you kind of become more into
books because books couldn't laugh at you know I was I was into post before
that but I think it made me more introverted mm-hmm you know because now
the spotlights on but it's not for something good and everyone's laughing
and pointing and like a lot of people just really discussed it it was just it
was you know really stands out in my mind so then what was it seems like you
know you're reading books you're kind of a nerd well what about like as you get
older as you get into high school I mean damn you know like I said from me
especially in the 80s you know like going down to the city in the 80s it was
mayhem down there it was total mayhem yeah the drug dealers the the pimps the
prostitutes like I remember we used to go out at night and you'd see like
prostitutes at probably around 10 or 11 o'clock at night and they'd be out on
the streets you know working and then we'd come back at three or four o'clock
and when we go to see a hardcore show or whatever we come back later and there'd
be those girls they'd be out there you know turning tricks they'd be looking
like they'd been turning tricks all night I mean how does a how does a kid
that's reading about spiders get through that without getting dragged into it oh
I think one of the main reasons for my path in life was being the youngest in
my family I could see different mistakes I'm not even gonna say mistakes but I
just I'll say different choices that other people made and I'm like
maybe I'll go this way I think when you're the youngest you may want to look
to be distinctive because you're everyone's always telling you do this do
this do this and you want to think for yourself mm-hmm
so I think maybe that's that's a reason were you getting any guidance from your
older siblings that we're saying hey you might not want to do this because the
other thing man this is such a negative way to look at human nature but so often
you see people try and drag other people down and I mean this was in the SEAL
Teams this is where I know it from in the SEAL Teams where you know you'd have
somebody that was trying to kind of move in the right direction the other guys
would kind of drag them back down you know like they wouldn't want people to
succeed and and that's not a blanket statement but I'm just saying it happens
and and I could definitely see it happening within families where you know
one sibling does start starts to do something well and the other siblings
kind of grab them and drag them back now but I can also see sibling saying don't
make that mistake go in this direction did you see either one of those or was
it more just your perception of what to do and what not to do I would say my
siblings my brother and his sisters have always been really cool with me you know
I'm kind of like I feel really blessed in that sense you know they always
steered me in the right direction and and the weird thing was around the
neighborhood you know I was known as like little Higgs and my other brother
was a similar age you know we were like you know that they were like oh you know
look out for those guys so I mean we would sometimes I'd be walking by the
lobby in my building and the guys the drug dealers right there I know the guy
he lives up on that floor you know you just know he sells drugs he does his
thing and hey what's up little head you just walk right by you know was never
like I never really felt like I wanted to get involved in that stuff
so I didn't really have too much of an issue but I could see all these things
going on around and this is like in the in the 80s in New York City which is
very different than it is now I would say you know was definitely a rougher
time oh yeah when's the last time you were back in New York just this few months ago I see my
brother so I go visit my brother and you know he still lives in Harlem
so I'll visit him you know pretty much when I'm coming back from overseas or
some I just stopped over there yeah yeah New York is a completely and utterly
different place now than it was in the eighties
nevermind the seventies I wasn't never went down there in the 70s but in the
eighties for sure what about um you know one of the things you used to tell us
stories me I mean you and I would sit down and talk for a long time we were
going through training and you tell me stories about some of the characters in
the projects there was I know there's a couple brothers that seem to have they
seem to be they seem to have their own like world that you kind of brushed up
into sometimes it is it was this like I mean I remember these stories bad give
us a little hint of those guys what was their deal so these two brothers Mark
and James they just I don't even know what started it just they just had it
out for me mostly James and these guys would every time they would see me you
know they were high on something and they would make this salad and when I
heard that so that was like I you know I would start running I'm guessing like
looking back they're seeing this kid with glasses on looking at a spider book
in the corner of a building and they're just like Target and you know that's
that's how it started and this I used to be in the corner just getting taking
punches from these guys in it so it started with them what you're saying
right yeah and and that's how you'd know that they were coming for you yeah and
and it was also kind of a signal because in the projects you know each building
is kind of like its own entity and like maybe a guy in another building it's
like a signal to that person so you hear like ooh then way in existence you'd
hear so weird thing going on so the funny
thing is this is fast-forward a little bit but you know we are going through
steel trading Jeff you would do that like it at moments of whatever like mill
moments of chaos where they're trying to get us to quit all of a sudden you'd
hear so I read just needs to be said though I was I told that story to
someone and that person just started saying it over and over and then it's
spread so then everyone was saying it so I wasn't like you know just randomly and
this is someone started and then it just spread and then it's like bloods stt to
the teams so uh so when you get to high school is your attitude changes your
attitude the same through high school Harry – what happened in high school so
when I was 12 my dad was a football coach you know I was doing like Pop
Warner football and I was one of the worst on the team for sure and you know
my dad was always trying to encourage me you know you got to try different things
so try football try this try that and you know my dad one day I came home and
he was blowing his nose and when he pulled the tissue away it was just blood
everywhere and like you could see like chunks and
stuff like like didn't look right at all like he knew something was wrong and he
was like I you know I got a bad flu and we didn't really think anything of it
and then finally you know I guess he went to the doctor and then we found out
that he had leukemia so that was in November and it just got progressively
worse so this is 83 late 83 and then he ended up you know going in the hospital
to get chemotherapy back then was way more harsh and so you know from like
November to like where he he died in January 4th and so it was just
only a couple months of this but you know after school I would come I would
just walk to this hospital that he was in it was on the way back home from the
school and just watch I just watch my dad go from someone really big and
strong and just watch him just shrivel you know going through this treatment so
between the leukemia the chemotherapy then he got pneumonia from the just
being sitting in the bed and hepatitis from a blood transfusion you know it's
just a whole bunch of things happen and then you know he died so you said that
that things changed did that change your outlook on things did you did you start
to look at the world in a totally different way now yeah I would say you
know everyone has that that um pivotal point in their life where like I guess
you can say like innocence is lost like it's not like you know a fairy tale in
life anymore you know I basically death was
introduced really quickly you know early on in my lifes and I just saw it and
that changed me because I became even more introverted more introverted yeah
so I would have maybe a friend or two at school but you know I would just be into
my own my own world pretty much and did that where you where were you living now
I was still in West Brighton projects visiting my mom back and forth was your
older siblings taking care of you er so that's where it's a little you know for
my family dicey but essentially at a stepmom at that point and I was going
between my stepmom and my mom's on the weekends you know getting involved in
the you know right after your father passed away and then you're going into
courts and all these during these rooms with these people doing psychological
evaluation do you want to stay with now your your your stepmom or your mom and
you it's just really confusing to me and
just kind of overwhelmed that kind of like in a sense checked out so yeah it's
what happened so are you – are you still participating in school like actively
like okay I'm gonna graduate did you have some kind of plan are you are you
studying at night anything like that I'm not a one thing about my schoolwork I'm
not like the best student like going to school and you know getting grades and
stuff like that more I just been following my interests now in listicle
classes that I was interested in I always did really well in other classes
I may not even care about the class you know but I saw I was I wouldn't say I
was like studying but I would just follow my interests so your dad died
when you were 12 so you must have been in like eighth grade seventh grade we're
great is that yeah seventh grade seventh grade so that
was really pivotal because you know you get taken out of school because your dad
died and then when you go back to school in the seventh grade
you're the kid whose dad died and I mean and you know and you know it and you
know everybody else knows it and you're just kind of like you know to yourself
more so I had some good friends like I used to I was into like I had some nerd
friends you know like Dungeons and Dragons that kind of stuff you know so I
would kind of hang out with them but it was only you know on breaks at school or
something like that there would you do it like what would
you do the rest of the day what would you do in the afternoon what would you
do in the evening what would you do on the weekends come home like at that age
after school come home watch like was it Thundercats
oh yeah remember that remember that that we had to go picks picks picks like was
that it was something to do win these prizes yeah yeah yeah that you
got a phone-in yeah yeah someone had to phone in and call for fire by saying
picks picks on the local TV station yeah I do remember that dang yet I don't
think that was that was didn't have that echo did you yeah in the bill at all
cuz you I think you might be younger yeah but and also I don't think they had
that was like a local TV thing yeah they had like a little echo they had
like a little call for fire so you'd be on the phone you'd have to call in while
you watching TV yeah and it was like a video game of some kind where you had to
drop bombs or shoot something but at a certain time as it was moving so when it
moved you'd say picks picks picks that that was like fire it was like maybe the
maybe the channel like on TV you know how it's like w lb n or whatever this
was WPIX or something just say picks banks so now I know who's trying to call
wait that was the other funny thing about mark and James is they'd see you
and I remember that's why that's why to this day whenever I see you I go yeah
and that's right because they'd see you and they call you out did you ever
reconcile some kind of relationship with those guys
no because those guys are more like you know cool guys in a sense you know they
were popular people and I was there is just really no connection you know and
and it was really weird cuz in the projects the the atmosphere you know
it's like R&B jazz hip-hop but James was like into metal him
they're like maybe like just a fraction of people in there that that were into
metal and he was into the metal he'd have Iron Maiden shirts on and all that
stuff and just becoming act and he'd give you the corner and just he'd
started punching away and then asked me do you want the medicine or the
treatment and both were the same movie yeah I remember you tell me you'd like
be you think you have you think you would have made it past them or whatever
and you'd be going up the stairs and all of a sudden you'd hear yeah and there was another one you told me
about something like you were walking it was dark in your walk I think you were
walking down the stairs and as you came down the stairs one of them whichever
one was lit a match okay yeah yeah so that was James – in is essentially um
you know every now and then you get blackouts you know the city and we had
this big blackout back then and that's a problem because now the elevator might
not be working so if you live on the 8th floor you have to walk up and there are
some elderly people that live like 7th 8th floor and so we're like you know hey
you know get a knife and you could make a dollar or two welcome people upstairs
then so you know I was walking people I walked maybe one or two people upstairs
and then I was coming downstairs and all of a sudden you tip out man and he just
lit a match and there was there was James and then more punishment it's
about magic wonder yeah take your breath away this is a Broadway play okay what's
going on that at that time okay that part I never knew all I ever knew all I
remembered from buds was it's about magic wonder – I've never heard I
thought it was just what those guys made up like goose this yeah just sigh CONUS so these guys never you never reconcile
with these guys there's no story of revenge where you went back not really
you know and and I'd you know looking back right now I wouldn't even you know
I don't really have anything for those guys you know I'm just I wish everybody
the best so you know it's just past what music were you listening to back then I
only listened to what was there so it was like a lot of rap music you know R&B
you know just they music and I got introduced to other
forms of music by first I played saxophone as he could so I played
saxophone for like four years so I was like got involved with like Orchestra
like I would my dad set me up for a summer program and I would go and play
in a symphonic orchestra for over the summer said I'd like take out a bus you
know and you know I take my saxophone along it was pretty cool that and also
my dad liked jazz so that was also another influence on you know my musical
tastes and then the kids some of the kids I played Dungeons & Dragons with
there were some groups like one group was like the Brewster Street crew of
those guys and then there was another group and these guys they were all into
like metal and stuff because when you go to you know the schools over there kind
of like is owned so they have people from different neighborhoods coming to
the schools so these these were these kids were not from the projects and they
listen to metal and like when we would play dungeon dragons that music was
there and I was like it just became normal so I was like you know and and
also I wanted to always wanted to try different things you know and see you
know what's that like so it's kind of exploring and so I started listening to
you know any kind of music I wanted to listen to I was interested in and I
check it out now at what point did you start thinking about the military as an
option okay after my father passed away there was a my father's good friend this
guy James Harrison mr.

Jim we used to call him he was his son came back from
the Navy he was a regular guy in the Navy and he told me about the seals
because I think I'd seen at this point I'd seen first blood you know I was like
I'm coming my you know I started finding out about
the different military units and so I'm like my original plan was to go and
agree going the Rangers then become a green beret and then I heard about Force
Recon then I'm gonna go on the reins and become Force Recon and then once I read
about seals going to seals and become a seal like I wanted to be all the special
forces but this you know Jamie his son that guy really changed my life because
he told me about the seals and and I was like well wouldn't you know that Navy
with a speedboat drivers I couldn't think of what in the Navy could be spec
ops and then he started telling me about it
and I was like man that's like I need to find out more about it and so I went to
the recruiter and at this point I'm like you know mid-teens and I asked the
recruiter about the seals and he said don't even think about it cuz you'll
never make it and that was like that's when I was like oh yeah
and then I started like really focusing on trying to get into SEAL team so mr.
Jim was along with my father they would teach boxing to like the kids like
troubled youth it's tough that these areas you know they had a heavy bag and
my dad was a boxer and yeah mr.

Jim started training me I said I wanted to
go into seals and he's like hey you know if you want to get into condition meet
me down here on the park bench at four o'clock and it's like mid winter in New
York snow and stuff like that and he's like if you're not here at 4:00 on the
dot I know you're not serious you know we
don't have to talk about it again and I'm like alright and you know there was
the first time ever like woke up early like that was four o'clock in the
morning yeah oh he's a good test I got out there after would have failed before
o'clock p.m.

No problem mr. Jim yeah he started
training me and it was like push-ups dips on the park bench and like when you
go into the buildings and what's Brighton at least this kind of like this
overhang doing pull-ups on that and it's like you know if you're gonna be a
fighter you need to keep your hands up that's the first rule of fighting so you
know we go out there was this field across the way and uh he'd happen you
running laps around the football field with bricks in my hands and the goal was
learned how to keep your hands up and you know the first few weeks is bricks
you know I'd meet him like two three times a week doing this and then
graduate it to like you know milk jugs pouring water in him and then the milks
jostling around as you run around you know and he really just teaches really
instilled in me you know like you have to train you know if you want to if you
want to get something you're gonna have to work for it so I I worked with them
and then at a certain point I was uh 17 at the time and I just chose to go live
with my mom because I was like you know I'm just really curious you know there
were a lot of things in my mind that you know I didn't really know my mom like I
think I should I should have and so I wanted to know more about that side of
my family so I went and moved with my mom and she wanted me out of the
projects and so we moved down to Florida Daytona Beach so my senior year of high
school was in Daytona Beach Florida it was a weird thing because my high school
the first year of high school I went to art design in Manhattan so I had to take
a bus a boat and a train to and from school every day so I take the three bus
down the ferry take the Staten Island ferry across take the four of the five
up to 57th and Washington go to school and you know I was oh
drawing and stuff like that so um I got into this art school I went there for a
year but it did it um I didn't do while I was coming in late
and it just wasn't a good fit and I ended up leaving that school and then I
went to my zone school Susan Wagner for two years so tenth and
eleventh and then I won with my mom and moved down to Daytona Beach and I went
to Seabreeze senior high school in Daytona Beach so my that was my senior
year and when I was there that's when I enlisted on the delayed Entry Program
and got into other Navy did you play any sports at any of these schools no did
you what it's weird how you had that it makes me you think it runs deeper than
I've even thought before like the idea of when you saw Rambo you're like you
can identify with it even though you were a nerd playing Dungeons & Dragons
and looking at spider books you see Rambo you're like okay cool that's what
I'm gonna do that's a deep-seeded thing man I think looking back on it James had
a lot to do with it mark and James cuz like getting beat up like that at a
certain point you just like you know you've had enough and then you kind of I
think in a sense can overcompensate so I started learning about martial arts
another really big part of you know my story is uh my oldest brother was you
know we had a big family incident he was out side and a guy in there's West Brian
projects right near it is Malcolm Holmes it's another pretty rough area and my
brother was there and this guy stabbed him with a buck double-oh-seven knife
that's a big blade to the hilt and you know his heart was was beating
you know moving the knife you know punctured his lung and he was in the
hospital for a while he got out you know you know doctors saved his life and all
he's got a really big scar on his chest but I mean I think he he got into kung
fu' from that I would say and you know he went all the way to being an
instructor in that but you know he would show me you know occasionally on on a
weekends sometimes I would go with him and train you know I'm hung gar kung fu
and I was never really you know I've never really got good at it but it did
instill in me you know martial arts something you want to learn mm-hmm and
so um you know I had those things going for me and I think between learning a
little bit about martial arts and you know the beatings I was taken at a
certain point I was like you know I can change it if I want so my thing was to
become a seal I thought that would be my answer so that's why I went see so you
the Florida what was it like on a school in Florida I mean sea breeze the high
school sounds it sounds nice it sounds nice but what was it I mean was it nice
or was it a jumper yeah it was pretty cool um it was uh definitely more
laid-back than a being in New York I remember distinctly at that time Ted
Bundy was in that area and the chaplain at our school was I think associated
with Ted Bundy and I just remember he was getting the electric chair and and
everyone in the school was like make sure you keep all your electrical
components to flow so they have enough juice did you talk to when you talk to
the recruiter so you had to talk to a recruiter again in Florida right you
obviously had a change recur what the recruiter said you the recruiters were
all about getting as many people in his pops and like you want to go see all
right come over here and you look like I'd be a great candidate yeah that's
where I was surprised the first guy told you he didn't think you're gonna make it
although JP Danelle they laughed at him yeah they laughed at him maybe that's a
good test and Dakota Meyer the guy said to for the Marine Corps said you
we don't have what it takes anyways and Dakota Meyer signing up the next day or
whatever right that's a good it's a little reverse psychology oh yeah but
they told you oh yeah you look like be up great candidate for the SEAL Teams
they're waiting for you yeah we have the the Thai ferret program and the dive
fair program I don't deprive something similar today but you enlist
for six years and if you make it through but straining and your SEAL training
then you're on SEAL team if you don't make it you're still in the Navy
persecutors I did the dive fair program too and it's funny too because when you
taught when it seemed like six years it's well that's like an eighth or sorry
a third of your life at the time right because you're 18 years old and you're
saying I'm signing on this thing for six years and you and me I don't know about
you I'm pretty sure you're probably the same way I had no idea whatsoever what
the daily life of a seal was as far as I'm concerned at war I was like well
it's got to be pretty similar to John Jay Rambo right yeah it's gonna be
something like that we're gonna be out just hunting people down and killing
them that's what's gonna be happening six years cool sign me up you have no
idea what you're getting into which is kind of cool
because I just about guarantee that anybody that had an eye anybody have
thought about what they were getting into you thought it was gonna be way
more extreme than anything all that you could have did anything it actually was
I I mean I remember the stories of yeah when you're in SEAL training they bury
you up up to your neck in the sand and let the tide come in and drown you and
then they resuscitate you and then ask you if you want to quit and I was like
yeah yeah that's the program that's you know what I remember is a guy that ended
up he was actually ended up in a class behind us but I went through boot camp
with him and he was a smart guy went to college great guy and he's telling me he
goes yeah shields have 50% casualty rate like that like no one makes the
retirement this is 99 you know there's no I mean I
guess the Gulf War is about to happen but there had been a war in a long time
and I think I think it came originally from World War two when like at Normandy
the you DTS took heavy cab they took like a 50% casually rate but I thought
that's just how I thought I was going in I'm signing up and I'm gonna get killed
or wounded and I'm probably not gonna make it 20 years whatever same attitude
oh yeah you definitely heard that they drowned you you definitely heard that
they drowned you in training you're gonna get drowned it people are gonna
drown you that's what's gonna happen you're like
yeah that's what I want which is pretty crazy right yeah it seems like it even
that's a good kind of screening process an initial screening process the crazy
thing is so many people still quit that's what's crazy you know what you're
signing up for you know what you're signing up for at least you have someone
you're signing up to die I mean I can say I was signing up to die
I'm like in my mind I was like okay when I sign this paper you know my life is no
longer it is no longer a promise it's no longer even a thing
yeah you I mean you are an adult even though a very young adult but you
understand what you getting into and you know the chances of getting killed or or
her really badly or you know can happen anything else from childhood Before we
jump in Doug before we get the the ended boot camp hmm nothing of note on them at
this point you said you finish up your senior what
kind of training are you doing getting ready putting my backpack and sometimes
I would run to school I'm doing a one incident I got saved at the beach so this I is this tropical storm coming
in and I you know keep in mind I'm coming from the projects in New York
City so swimming is not I'm not a good swimmer
and I'm like well the best way to learn you know is to go
tropical storm baby I just remember getting out of getting out and looking
at the beach and just seeing the water like frothy and stuff and I was just
like let's go for it and I just ran in and basically I was a drowning victim
this guy came out getting out of water started yelling at me and stuff like
that so then I came home I'm like you know I told my my i want to take swim
lessons so then the only place we could find was the YWCA and this this I could
I think she was like maybe a college student you know I just would see this
girls writing notes and stuff on the side with a textbook but she was the
guard there and she taught me how to swim so I learned the side stroke like
basic side stroke not a combat swimmer stroke and a brush stroke crawl you know
like the technique of it mm-hmm and while I was doing that I I got books on
swimming workouts how to swim how to you know get um more hydrodynamic this kind
of thing how much swimming did you do in the
projects not really any I mean like in the summer there's a pool right near it
the pool is three feet mm-hmm and then they have a little baby pool so that was
another thing about mark and James when when the when I would go to the pool I
mean I mean on several occasions I mean James if you're out there listening your
home would kill me a couple of times and I'm not kidding he would you know
there's like a ladder you could walk out he would get me under there and stand on
me and hold me there like trying to drown me and the worst feeling I ever
had was like just you know I'm in the water and like I'm bouncing like bobbing
because it's too deep and I just hear and I look over and I see him on the
side for you and then you jump in and come after them trying to get out you
know trying to hop away and then I look over and then it's mark and then you
know I would you know the lifeguards would you know have to get these guys
away from me so yeah I did I was not a the swimming extent was like close your
eyes windmill until you can't hold your
breath anymore and then stand and hopefully there's a bottom to stand on
how did you uh dude how did you not get freaking discouraged after you almost
drown and you don't know how to swim and you must be at least seeing that the
seal test to is who do we have to swim 500 meters 500 yards to like go to buds
yeah how did you not say maybe I need to look at the Rangers or maybe I need to
look at the Special Forces or something I was just really bent on the seals and
that was just um that was the one back then like now there's a lot of
information on SEAL team but back then you couldn't find anything there and and
I remember you there are these books like I'd get like the Ranger book and
then you'd open it up and you'd see like they had Green Berets seals Force Recon
and then you look like when you try to find the seal book no one had it and it
was like the mystery mm-hmm so I was like you know I think I want to I want
to go with that one so you're how long were you in the
delayed Entry Program for let's see I graduated high school
like that spring time and I was in the Navy in August it was pretty quick yeah
I went in pretty much right after high school so that that um I had like maybe
a two-month period of really swimming that's what I was working on and you
know I was doing push-ups and finding like the screening tests or working on
pull ups and sit ups you know all the basics you need for blood running mm-hmm
then you said you shipped off did you go to boot camp in Orlando right Orlando
yeah how was that a shock to your system I think the main shock was just the
first like wake up but then after that you know I was
pretty smooth it wasn't really that big a deal I was in a Duke boot camp hey so
I was in the new boot camp and it was like myself and this other guy's name
was justice we were both going to the seals and so we were like old doser to
seal guys you know over there we didn't we'd you know in boot camp my swim was
still not qualifying so they were like hey you if you serious about this
program you get up at 3:30 go over there to the pool and do your laps before you
know the regular day of boot camp starts so I was like I did that throughout boot
camp and really improved my swimming and there was a you know they had sealed
motivators working there and there was a seal Vietnam vet you know rough dude
there and uh he was uh he would kind of you know oversee the swimming he would
watch me and stuff and he would be saying stuff like you'll never make it
with that kind of structure just never make it and I had I had an issue with
him because you know III my swim was like just on the edge I failed so I knew
I could pass that I just needed to be faster push up some good sit-ups but my
pull-ups were like on the edge too and so I remember like getting I got seven
and then I got eight was like right here and he just counted seven and I tried
again and you like with pull-ups once you fail you're not going the dog and I
just stayed on the bar and he said all right recruit jump off the bar and I
yelled out so you'll stand quit and he just he just laid into me screaming it's
tough so I jumped off the bar and then I I knew I had to walk on the pull-ups so
they had a gym there and what I did was that I was during boot camp all this
happened yeah I don't they taking a screening test a one time
yeah I took it my I think like two to three times so
then the the because if you don't make it for buds you know there was you conic
okay now you can go divert or EOD so I ended up working on a pulldown machine
and that's how I got my pull-ups so then by actually by the by the end of boot
camp I passed the tests and ended up you know with orders what so then you get
two buds do you remember checking into buds yeah
that's another thing so when I was in boot camp and I get to yep back then you
had to go through your source rating so I was in engineering so I had to go to
Great Lakes and go through engineman a school this is like the trade that
you're gonna get if you don't make it through SEAL training you're gonna work
in the job in the regular Navy and so I went to Great Lakes and went through a
and a school and my vision didn't qualify for buds day so this is kind of
like gonna maybe put me in hot water with some people but essentially I ended
up passing the vision test through some nefarious methods how'd you do it so
essentially what happened was I had orders to yo D training because your
vision wasn't good enough right for but so everything well it was good enough
but my vision you know I you know glasses so one of the one of the guys
there that Worthen one of the dive motivators Steve Collins that another
really pivotal person in my life he was like hey man if you really interested in
going the shield training you know we can work on switching your orders and
you'll have to work as a you know for us as you know the dive motivator Shaq I
was like yeah of course and so I did it and I had to wait like
it was like months like gonna say like at least six months day and I worked for
these dive motivators just slowly seeing for your vision test and here's the deal
they have the medical was right near it and the vision tests that have to take
is right there on the wall so every day I'm just looking at it and memorizing
all of the you know the letters and numbers
mm-hmm and I ended up passing the test so you that's awesome and and this whole
time you're obviously working out and getting in shape and these guys are
telling you what to do and what to be prepared for and all that stuff
yeah that was another big deal like George white Steve Collins instructor
Roberts these guys really made a difference because they were like hey
you know they weren't like you know showing me everything but they're like
you have to do this this is gonna help you you need to run you need to do this
and that and what was really bad was at a certain point you know team guys work
in that dive motivator Shack they don't want to do it and so they're like Higgs
he's a blue and gold some judy judy T trunks so I'm looking like a seal right
I got the blue and gold you DeeDee trunks and the boots on and everything
and dive socks and they're like you're gonna give the test so for six months
I'm working at the dive motivators and pretending to be a seal yeah yeah pretty
much they're like hey you know Higgs what's what's it like it's a team and
they're like let's not talk about what you have to worry about is getting
through the screening test so I would run that they would do that runs they
would do the push-ups all the stuff I would test them and just record it and
six months of that and then when I get the buds
you got like dozens and dozens of guys you're like hey that's the dive
motivator guy I'm just saying so you check into buds I don't worry you
know what's weird is I don't really remember you know some people have
really good checking into bud stories or whatever like they check in and they get
immediately told to hit the surf in their dress whites or whatever
for whatever reason man I don't really even remember checking in a bus I think
it was a weekend I think no one cared you know and I was the biggest thing for
me as I was kind of surprised you know I expected to walk through the quarterdeck
and just get ripped apart and start becoming a different you know you know
like the James Bond movie echo Charles you know where the door opens and
there's people training and they're doing judo and they're shooting guns
what's happening but instead I open up the door and there's the two new two
other guys that are going through training and they're sitting there all
scared looking and there's no one around and I said I'm checking in the buds and
they're like okay now you can just sign this and then you come back on Monday
and I was kind of let down as very anti-climactic
some people get a much but how did you was anything cool for you yeah I think
um I showed up on the quarterdeck and someone was getting hammered there
because I showed up during the day during a weekday and guys getting
hammered and yelled at and instructor to just look at me and like you know here
I'm like gosh yes and they just saying good we'll be seeing ya you know and
just walk off you know and I'm like oh really
so then how long did it take for you to class up oh it was I went through I
don't know if they do this these days but they had the fourth phase when I was
in fourth phase and you just wait there into your class up so I originally
classed up with buds class 1 7 for how far did you make it in 174 all the way
to the day before hell week and then what happened
so you have like basically you're going through first phase like the
conditioning phase of buds doing lots of long run swims
PT's Oh course all that stuff and um I ended up doing this one swim like a week
before that last week and on the swim my-my-my facemask one of
the one of the lenses fell out and I just the water was it was a super choppy
swim so every every stroke might taking on water and then I have no you know
it's I can't really see much and it's making me go slower for my swim buddy
and everything and I just felt sick on the swim like nauseated and really weak
and tired like not normal and when I got out of the water you know we just got
hammered because we failed the swim and then I had to go in and you know do just
getting hammered and so it was uh that was like on a Thursday it's in the
weekend and then Tuesday comes along and then we got to do the two-mile swims
ocean swim and then on that swim i coming back past the swim when i came
out of the water I couldn't stand i was just falling and i was crawling that
would stand up and fall over again and the instructors just swarmed on me and
just started trying to have i mean i'm trying to do push-ups or whatever but I
just couldn't and then then I start laughing like it was funny I was like my
first experience of being inebriated because I was basically you know find
out later add hypothermia so I got I had a 91 degree core temperature at that
point and day so they brought me you know to the hypothermia chamber and
that's basically a hot tub and get my body temperature back up and then it's
like you know you're feeling better yeah all right this is seal training so go
get wet and Sandy you know right after coming back to normal and then they're
like that night I just remembers you know mine in the rack and thinking like
you know medically I'm having some issues here and how am I going to get
through there's another swim and then they just
longer you know so I just remembered tossing and turning and then of the
everyone in the class was like trying to help me out so like you know back then
you got to take pantothenic acid pills like this B vitamin that's supposed to
increase thermogenesis to make your body heat up and so uh and then you need lots
of calories so what we did on this one swim before it everyone came in put
Vaseline all over it then my wetsuit and then drink a bottle of olive oil for
calories to help burn during the swim and well that's not a good idea I didn't
quite finish the bottle of olive oil but I can tell you right now it's not a good
idea so one you know we're doing swim inspection and the instructors are you
know checking knives co2 cartridges and the instructor looks and they see the
Vaseline on the end of the sleeve like what is this and he pulls it up and he
sees it Vaseline take your wet suit off and then roll around in the sand and
then put the wet suit back on and then do this one and so uh I did so it's like
this two-mile ocean swim just like every you know at a certain point it's just
the sands just destroying your skin and everything and this is seal training
yeah so I came out and I had hypothermia again and you know at this time it was a
lot different because I was like you know I was like my body's not working
the way I wanted to you know it's I'm not quitting it's like I don't even have
control of the situation and essentially uh at that point they're like you know
you can't continue in the training you're gonna get killed
you know they had a someone a few classes ahead who had died out in San
Clemente they you know he did a swim a four mile ocean swim came out of the
water and just fell down and in making so like you know and this
guy's his body temperature was only a few degrees below mine so they were like
you know you're medically dropped from training and so I was a that was of on
that Friday then the hell week starts for that class I was in that Sunday and
I just remember being in my room like with the lights off and like you know
feeling of could I you know and all the class was going through hell week and I
just I wasn't allowed in and you know there was some you know when I when I
was medically dropped I just started to do my own training because I was you
know now I'm an X Division so I got the the Navy
garb on the white had the dunker G younger jams dungaree clothing and I'm
doing watch one of the instructors came by and said hey I always I knew you'd
quit sooner or later now as I didn't quit it's like yeah you
did and then walked off and that just like got me angry so I was like I'm
gonna do my own training so I started doing I would join the class and run
behind them you know I was just being a part of the class doing cadence and
everything and I went got wet in Sandy and then instructor Dumas remember him
there he just pulled me aside and I was like it's over son it's over and and
that was it and so I had orders to some ship in like Louisiana or something like
that and uh but the instructors that saw me getting wet in Sandy they were like
oh look at this kid you know and there was an instructor named chief small and
he said if you want your writing requests for captain's mess and I'll try
to get you in training I'll put in a good word for you and get you back in
the training and I was like yeah and so I would write the request but now I'm in
X Division so I'm working for that guy powered mmm-hmm and this is an old
Vietnam vet rough I mean it's hard for me to do just as
what this guy you know what this guy was like and he would just take my request
and throw it in the garbage and he just kept doing it and he would just just
yell at me you'll never make it through this program son get the hell out of
here and uh the guy chief small I told him
about it he took it up to the CEO and um I got captain's mast and Lieutenant
Zinke was I think part of that and those guys they said hey we're gonna give you
another chance cuz I was explaining you know I didn't quit the training I got
medically dropped like hey if you can gain weight cuz I'm like at that point
I'm 6 1 but I wait I've looked at my medical record I weighed like 153 and
you know that's just not enough mass to get you through the cult of being a
fraud man it's just not gonna it's gonna be tough so they they're like hey it was
Christmastime Merry Christmas you're back in training go get wet and uh I
started up in a class 176 like a couple months later so that that time I was uh
that in-between time of classing up I just focused on gaining weight so I
would uh was really strange for a lot of people you can order pizza inputs like
when everything's over you can order pizza in buds and and so I
would I was like you know I have to gain weight so you know on some time off I
got a big thing of that weight gain powder I got a bunch of milk like whole
milk and I would order two-for-one Domino's Pizza hmm and I was just
constantly drinking the milk with the weight gain I would eat a pizza before I
went to sleep with the weight gain and the milk sent my clock for 3:00 in the
morning and eat the other pizza you know this it got disgusting yellow and at a
certain point like I'm not a pizza fan anymore but I ended up by the time I
classed up I was like like 170 you know I'd gained weight
and I'm then I classed up in Boyd's class 176 and then and came to more
difficulties with pool comp and then I got rolled into 177 your class and I
wasn't even poke on it was it was um uh like dive buddy cuz I was like already
breathing or something yeah I was with Matt okay did both you guys get rolled
for that yeah so so you you didn't get rolled into our class until now second
phase yeah die face so I went through hell week in 176 the hardest hell week
that that ever really existed in butts yes that's a seven six guys know this
stuff so then you rolled into our class and yeah the no one really told no there
was no heads up whatsoever about like the pool comp and all that stuff that's
something no one really knows they know about it now but back then they had that
Texas Chainsaw Massacre poster in the medical area and it said but it was
crossed out it's crossed out uh Texas it said buds pool comp Massacre and it had
like a mask on one of the guys that was getting his head sawn off with a
chainsaw and that's what pool comp is you know you're gonna go down there and
you're gonna get annihilated I tell you I mean it's it's really hard to do it
justice like basically it's not a matter of pain it's a matter of dealing with
not being able to breathe like if and and you're on compressed air if you hold
your breath and rock it to the surface you're gonna embolize it and hurt
yourself badly you know so you have to have that control and the instructors
are taking your mask off tying your your gear and knots and you have to get these
knots out I mean the other thing is though they're using the old regulators
from the 50s like Jacques Cousteau so you can close it and you can't breathe
so they they're taking this regulator out that filled with water and then you
got it you got it turn your head
get the water out or blow it out and their Tiny's see these knots in you have
to get it out it's just it's horrific and it lasts a long time
yeah it's 30 minutes your first breath is Walker so because when they rip that
regulator out of your mouth the hose fills with water so when you put it in
your mouth you can't just Oh No well your first breath is you gotta like
absorb the water and get it out and then you get a breath so you're you're in
full panic mode as you're trying to get the knot untied you finally get it
untied and now you're just just dying for air and you put that thing in your
mouth and you still have to clear that thing it's it's really it's where I
failed I failed pool comp my first time and then I don't know when you with us
in the dip tank cuz over the weekend myself and a few other guys that failed
did you pass it the first time when he went through with 177 did you pass pool
comp no I did not oh no and what happened with you
remember Anson Davies yeah we got out on that weekend because
you know we had failed you're on the wall of shame and we went down to Mexico
to do dive training yeah and we we were like I was so weird was you know in
Mexico the the beach had all this life on it that you don't see here you know
but it's essentially the same Beach just further down but you know we did uh we
kind of like worked on it ourselves for a bit and then came back and I just
remember that that Sunday night thinking of everyone's just tossing and turning
in their bed cuz you're like am I gonna make it through this the next day you
know and I was able to you know I did it yeah yeah we what we did and I'm not
sure how you weren't with us but it was me and like three or four other guys
that failed pool comp on Friday and we went in the big dip tank and we
straight-up drowned each other we were just murdering each other in there and
clear and stuff and man I was so horrified of not making it and of
getting role you know cuz I don't even think about getting rolled it's like as
far as I was concerned if I got rolled that seemed like just death you know it
seemed like the worst thing ever but we pool comped each other so hard that all
of us made it the first time on Monday morning like it was no factor so that
extra a little bit of training weather in Mexico or weather in the dip tank
I also they let us do it like the instructors I don't know how he did it I
don't know what happened that we had all the gear like we got full scuba tanks
with air and brought them into the dip tank and just murdered each other I
don't know that's not legal you know like that's not okay you can't do that
that's like if you if they change yeah they're just like there's an opening
right there if you take the opportunity good on you if you don't so sorry so
sorry yeah so we end up you end up in our class
and that's funny I actually thought you did everything with us I thought I
thought you got rolled into 177 I thought you went through hell week with
us I didn't remember that I remember that you got rolled in in you know die
face cuz yeah so then we did San Clemente Island chewing tobacco yeah
that's not a fun that they found guys you're not allowed to have chewing
tobacco out there and they found somebody had smuggled a bunch out a
bunch and so they made everyone in the class take massive chunks of chewing
tobacco and then we did like a thousand eight cow bodybuilders which is like an
old-school Burpee and like me I did I never chewed tobacco and never smoked a
cigarette and and all of a sudden I got a big mouthful of this yeah I haven't dipped since that was my
one and only jealousy that was your opportunity does it like Jam you know
like when you dip and you haven't ever does it like you feel like actual
effects right like way strong like it jams you up kind of hard they dip yeah
that stuff makes you feel sick yeah maybe I feel sick yeah burning in my
mouth yeah yeah but you know how like okay let's say you never smoked a
cigarette ever and then you straight up smoke a whole cigarette you're gonna be
like buzzing kind of hardcore right were you buzzing from the dip is what I'm
saying I didn't know that and pain in this thing like this is horrible
yeah but yeah like like you said Jeff it cured me of ever wanting to do that well
I think it's important to know like you know in SpecOps a lot of guys are gonna
use dip chewing tobacco because of that reason it's like a little bit of you
know yeah what do you meant anything else from saying company Island besides
good times and flights I'm on fire requested to do a touch-and-go you do
they still do that like the fried frog he'll they still do frog he'll they
still do flights they still got a flight tower out there you still be touching
goes the whole nine yards yeah it's good times make you tough so then you get
that we got on with buds you check in a SEAL team and so one it's 1991 when we
get to SEAL team one yeah it's early 1991 did we go too did we go to Airborne
School together yeah went to get our airborne on Fort Benning yeah so that's
different too nowadays but back then you went to army jump school there's what
Benny showed you and that's where seals get like a horrible I guess kind of a
horrible reputation because like you're coming out of buds day you'd go to
Airborne School which airborne is a very conventional school to go to like every
one of the like a lot of it not everyone but a lot of people go to the go to the
army jump school so there's no super high standard for physicality or
anything so when you get down you're fresh out of seal training and you're
down there just feel like you can do anything
and of course the the black hats which are the instructors down there they did
you know they call everyone Navy if like all every guy that's not in the army
that is called you Navy I never that come on over here Navy beat
your boots that was another thing to make you do squats they say beat your
boots and you basically got to hit your boots but it's pretty fun school I had a
good time yeah yeah airborne was cool and then um and then we check in a SEAL
team one and you and well we went through sqt together or stt used to be
called zeal tactical training yes that was just learning all the stuff that you
actually where I wanted to actually learn I'm sure we all just wanted to
learn how to shoot move and communicate out of patrol explosives like this is
when you start doing cooler stuff besides key being wet and Sandy yes and
then from there we roll into our platoons your and my sister platoon you
call it brother pretend okay fair enough well know where they call it sister
platoon they do they never call it brother platoon hmm I
mean like stores they'll do that too that's our sister store yeah we never
saved another store even in the teams where there's no females and we say
brother what's up with that I mean we say sister so you guys are in our
brother platoon apparently now or system and we're doing work up you know it's a
different environment I remember your platoon your platoon had
some let's just say pipe hitters in it right um you guys had some heavy hitters
that pull – yeah more Sullivan in my 1st platoon we had great guys my first Atun
but the guys that you had in your platoon were harder I'm straight up
there's no real other way of putting it they were harder on you guys for sure
yeah I mean I'm lucky in the sense that I wasn't the main target I mean I was
targeted I mean there was a situation we had down and
in Panama like with the hazing that was really extreme you know and you know
some some injuries happen I got choked out at least five times that night at
least there and yeah beaten you know it was that platoon was pretty hardcore
yeah I've told a story on this podcast couple times about like when I got to
the team and um um sitting out by the pool or I'm out doing a workout on the
pull-up bar and this giant human like barely human goes lumbering out across
the it's probably 200 year maybe even a hundred yards from like the team area to
first lieutenant where the engines are and it's a guy from your platoon you
know who it is the biggest guy in your platoon yeah and he's carrying a gallon
of milk with him and so he's lumbering across this giant guy with this whole
body tattooed no shirt on and he stops like at the 50 meter mark and drinks a
half a gallon of milk he keeps walking and I'm like how am I gonna survive in
this environment because it was just it was a very hostile environment back then
you know very hostile and in the SEAL platoons and and you know what a lot but
not a lot of it so let's just say some of it was wrong some of it like some of
it got taken to a point where it was not good for morale it wasn't good for unity
you know some of the hazing got to a point where you're like hey that that's
not that's not okay like that's wrong some of its good you know some of it's
okay you know welcome to the teams and it's a rough environment if you screw up
you're gonna pay but yeah some of it went overboard but yeah you had a you
had a you had a hardcore platoon and when we when we got overseas we were you
know what I remember is on old an old master chief who seemed like the oldest
guy I had ever seen in my life which was Steve Bailey you know and he was
probably like seven years younger eight years younger than I am right now he's
probably like 40 but he seems so old and he's like does anyone here want to learn
how to fight and I'm like yep me and I I don't know if we were to get
when that happened but we ended up in the Kwan's in hut with mats on the
ground that he knew enough jiu-jitsu he was like a white belt
no I my recollection is different so the first deployment overseas that platoon
that we were just talking about we went to Guam and then flew straight to
Thailand okay and we were in Thailand and that's where I met Steve we're
talking about and basically I got introduced to jiu-jitsu there and then
we got back to Guam you know continue the training okay well it's kind of
weird 1991 mm-hmm and I got introduced to jujitsu Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in
Thailand yeah in 91 and then actually as 92 yeah there and then coming back to
Guam started at the Quonset hut yeah so so that must have happened cuz you went
right away to Thailand yeah I'm in SIL and Guam you everyone comes back from
Thailand including Steve Bailey and then when he came back he must have said hey
who wants to learn jujitsu I raised my hand you know he I think he he's who
wants to learn how to fight cuz I think him asking who wants to learn jujitsu
would have been the most you know would have been like oh is this a language is
this up I don't even know so it was more like hey who wants to learn how to fight
I'm like of course and then I just remember him just choking us out I mean
and everything just like with three or four different moves you know I was like
oh he knew it may be an armlock and Americana may be like the sit up sweep
he didn't there wasn't a ton of different things I can do how to take
the back but it wasn't this it seemed like a little imited number of moves
that jujitsu was it wasn't as involved as it as it is now for sure were you
already making the connection I didn't even make the connection I thought oh
there's in my mind I thought jujitsu was seven moves like I you know or whatever
maybe when you get advanced there's 12 you know what I mean I just thought okay
there's seven moves here they are practice them and then you know jujitsu
I didn't I didn't make the connection between
that what we were learning and this whole freaking crazy sport although my
training with Steve was a really pivotal time in my life you know he introduced
me to jiu-jitsu that's really changed my life in a really awesome way but also
like there was a lot of striking – we did a kickboxing and you know III that's
what actually solidified my my journey in jiu-jitsu because you know he had a
few black belts that had trained under him other team guys and we would do we
were doing sparring at this point when we'd come back home and I would go down
there and like for two years at least a trend three times a week there and it
was one day striking and then the next day we do ground and I got and then like
on a Friday we do like just sparring it so it's like SEAL team all the other
guys are black belts and I'm like the new guy and it's just like the goal is
to knock the new guy out you know and and um I got my jaw dislocated by one of
the guys I came in on him and he turned around it's big hook kick right my chin
and I fell forward he turned his back no hooks or nothing I just put the choke on
and I choked them but then after that I couldn't remember what day it was my
back teeth weren't touching and um I had my chin was just swollen and I had to
like wait around for a while so I had like the wherewithal to get back home
but that was like kind of like pivotal because I was like you know even when I
was hurt did you Jitsu goes on fuel and sometimes when you don't have your
senses if you can just feel what's going on you you have a chance and so that was
a big lesson for me and that's after we got home so after we got home you were
state you were staying engaged in jiu-jitsu when I got home I didn't and I
think part of its because I just thought like I said I thought
I know the seven moves of jujitsu so I'm good and I wasn't another platoon and so
I'm just like okay cool I know did you in my mind I actually thought I knew
jujitsu like I'm good I know I know everything you know look
it's like I know the alphabet right I know these words so I'm good and then
but you kept training at what point did you find Fabio alright so it had been I
was getting out at that time okay so we do we both do another platoon right I'm
in an art platoon so I'm on a ship you go back on a SpecOps deployment to Guam
did you go to Guam so you go to Guam and you're training that whole time yes and
then you come home continue the training yeah and at that point I was like hey
you know do they have like any kind of you know like any other places I can
train you know I want to learn more and I'm thinking about you know getting out
and he's like well you know Steve was like you know we should um maybe check
out a tournament and I'm like all right yeah okay and I was the same way and I'm
thinking you know at this point you know I know jiu-jitsu and he wrote a letter
to me he wrote a letter and sealed it and he said when you get up there at the
tournament give this letter to hoist and I went up there and um I met hoist and
gave him the letter he opened it and he said well you've been training with
Steve for two years you're a blue belt now and so I got my blue belt from Royce
Gracie has never had trained with him at all but got my blue belt there to do the
tournament because like two years you know go in the blue belt division but I
had never trained with the key like when I got there I was like you know everyone
had diesel and I was like we'd always done nogi mm-hmm and my first opponent
was Craig Cole Fabio's first black dog on hearing and I think it was maybe the
worst I might have been a record for the worst loss in jujitsu because
I didn't get tapped out but it was like I just never been swept that many times
because he had the key and I'd never seen those sweeps because I was always
going noogie and and it was like literally like 30 nothing like just I
was just getting thrown around and then I remember back then like my defense
forearm lock when the someone gets mad it was to put your arm up and when they
go for it yank your own without as fast as possible and he almost caught me with
the arm up but when I'm trying to get my arm out and then all of the friends are
on the side like yelling break it and it's called jiu-jitsu and yeah it was
probably including Fabio if he was there on the side Fabio was reffing
Oh Jack that's gonna work out good so then after that you know I was like hey
you know is there that I came Fabio Santos is opening a school down in San
Diego and that's where you've been trained if you want to go down and train
under our system so I was like yeah you know I would definitely explore it and
you know when I went back I told Steve would happen and he was like you know
well you know expand your horizons learn as much as you can and so I started with
Fabio and I were trained at Steve's and then at a certain point I'd um I'd
gotten out at this point and I'm now getting ready to go on to school so I
had the GI Bill and I'm I started working at Mesa College like it's local
junior college was it like 1995 yes and so 90 I started at Fabio's in 95 during
the spring time okay it sounds like very very early at Fabio's like those those
are some good times – yeah and then and then when you got out what was your plan
when you got out I didn't really have a plan you know I was just like um I mean
you realize coming from where I were I did I haven't really seen much I mean
I've been in the teams by me like haven't you in like I didn't even go to
school or anything after I went in right after high school
so I was like really curious about just exploring so it's like go to school I'm
gonna try anything I can you know just looking at the world seeing what
everything is about you know I think people who do come from
areas like the projects in a sense you're kind of sequestered and you're
not maybe seeing the big picture of things and I will say that's something
for everyone you know you're you're in your environment and no one ever sees
the whole picture maybe we see most of the pictures but not the whole thing and
so I think at that point I wanted to just kind of explore life and that my
plan was if I don't like it I can go back in see lips so so then how many how
many hours a day were you trained in jiu-jitsu when you got out well what I
did was I wanted a way to be able to train a lot so I ended up working at
Fabio's essentially you know like cleaning the match doing the intro class
running the students around you know the morning and the night class so it's just
there are all the open hours a month my roommate John and we basically were like
Fabio's assistants the road right now at some point I guess it was in late 95 or
early 96 you came to my house you came to my house and said hey bro you wanna
you wanna go train and I was like yeah I was like of course so we go across the
street to the girl to the to the park across the street from my house in
Coronado from my apartment in Coronado we go down there and do you just you
just you know you're like let's roll and so you know I attacked you or whatever
and you were just triangle armlock you know whatever choke back you just
annihilated annihilated me and it's actually it's crazy right it's like
you had gotten so good and I just remember saying alright give me the
address this place I'll be down there is it open today because I'll go down there
today if it's open today and if it's not open today then I'll be down there
tomorrow and I went down there and I said I remember talking to Fabio's wife
and I said oh yeah I'm here I want to sign up for unlimited classes and she's
like well do you want to try it first and like no I just want to sign up for
unlimited classes and she's like okay so that was that and then we then it was on
with the old school the old school route at Fabio's which was a beast crew yeah
you Dean Lister Craig call Craig call James Nielson
right some beasts in there Greg Mac ended up showing up along the way along
the way who else dr.

Mick Brent was there too
brent was there remember Kim yeah I see Kim at wrestling tournaments sometimes
he's a referee at risk wrestling tournaments Louie Lewis Lewis Lewis the
Korean dude from Oh Lewis yeah yeah he was we use it because he was a judo guy
originally but he used to go hard yeah especially like early when he showed up
he would he would go hard he was there to use there to win everyone it's you
know I look at that now in hindsight you know having have some had some judo
experience as well judo the the the way people attack is I would say they're
trying to make you tap they're they're not looking for you to tap like you know
I've I've even traveled in certain areas in Asia you can no one taps to chokes
it's just all you caught me in a choke I'm going out there just not going to
tap to a choke so I think the judo guys anyone who's a judoka when they get they
go for their taps like if you stand up in the guard and the guy has your arm
they're gonna try to break it so that if the fight does continue now you have one
arm mm-hmm so if you don't tap they're still going to win because you have one
or at what point and I think Fabio used to
say this he used to say you're the only person Jeff that went from jiu-jitsu to
capoeira what when did you start getting into capoeira
oh that was like maybe a year after I got out and essentially it's just like
I've been saying I want to explore and try different things you know I've never
been the type of person that okay don't do this I'm like well why not you know
so I was experimenting and I was like it's a good way to get good condition
for jiu-jitsu you know one learn something different and that that's
another thing I remember is when you came to my house to fight me I was like
what how would you uh you know if you if we were gonna fight how would you what
would you do like how would you start it and you did some weird kappa Wetty stuff
yeah I started doing comfortable yeah and I was all confused and I'm like oh
man I don't even know what's happening this is horrible and then I'm in a
triangle tapping out and we were competing a lot back then like every
opportunity we would get we would go and compete and one of the most well it
might be it's definitely the top probably five that I've been at live
matches was we were at neutral grounds oh yeah which was in the ghetto and in
like Inglewood or something I mean it is a nasty part of LA and it was uh it was
like in the backyard of some crappy you know house and they had a cage there and
there's freaking rabid pit bulls in the alley and everything and we roll in
there and I like we all had matches and they set up it wasn't a tournament was
just like one match and God think about those matches there was so you had a
well Dean had a match against the the Armenian dude that was like a grown man
and he I thought Dean I thought he like I thought the guy died of exhaustion or
something in the ring I don't know if you remember that one it was mayhem and
Armenian guys are cranking the Armenian music on boom bah
season stuff it was it was so crazy there was not dude and the cool thing is
that's like the Karo Parisyan crew like that's them so like when Carl Parisian
was like oh yeah dude it was one of like the old-school guys
they had that that in they were all kind of linked to judo gene LeBell so it was
just like really cool to be a part of that but you had a match at neutral
grounds perfect in the two against a bow Hershberger who was this he was he was
like Hickson's as far as I know he was kind of Hickson's premier purple belt at
the time and at this time like purple belt was kind of yeah if you were like
purple belt was the highest level that Americans had at this point right and so
you had this match against um against that guy and he was a great guy I mean
he's a great competitor he competed all time we team all time but you but he was
a lot bigger than you a lot bigger than you you know he was probably like what
do you think 200 220 or something like that big guy and you guys threw down you
know jiu-jitsu match and you know he was kind of on top and kind of as far as I
can remember sort of dominating the match and then there came the triangle
out of nowhere and that was kind of nuts man
you won that is their video that anywhere oh no video have them maybe a
couple of pictures of it you know what competition you know I look at the
competitions are I think it's really good to test your skill against other
people in competition basically you're looking at someone who has the same
skill level but you don't know their game mm-hmm and it's up to you to try to
negotiate and you and have your jiu-jitsu when the situation so I you
know the tournaments are good I think but um you know I've because of Steve
because of where I grew up my focus as far as your q is self-defense
that's my main focus you know I look at the matches like this person won today
but then if they repeat the match what happens then and repeated again and
again and again that's how you find out who's there who's the best you found out
who's the best right there you know so I I kind of I want to keep my you know my
humility I guess I would say as far as like fighting is concerned anyone can
lose at any time so you know make sure your techniques on point and be aware
yeah that's a weird thing to is it's it's a cool thing about jujitsu it's
like you can go so hard you can go as hard as you can you know like that's the
way Jitsu works but then there's the other thing is it's as close as it is to
a fight it's not even a real fight it's still not a real fight and well then
what do you have in those other arenas what can you do what can you
how can you what can you create really is what it boils down to there's a
creativity aspect that's another thing that you kind of excel at with jujitsu
is there's the creative aspect of kind of creating moves and creating series
that work really well together how much how much you went to like I remember you
know when I would see you cuz because eventually you know we weren't all
training at fabio's anymore and we were training at different places and so when
I see you it always be like you'd be deep into yoga you'd be deep into
kettlebells or you'd be deep in a Bulgarian bag or you'd be deep into
Sambo you were always going down these different paths to add to your to add to
your repertoire of moves and movement and strength and conditioning yes
is that just still something that you're always doing yes I mean one thing that
happened a very pivotal thing you know when I was in school the thing I focused
on first was trying to get some type of work so they had the San Diego Community
College fitness specialists I've they had that the first year I was in that
first class and so I did that to become a personal trainer the way personal
training set up you know if you work for like an organization like ace or
something like that you always have to upgrade your your training
and so what I did was album I would go outside of a sand sea oh you know what's
this like what's this like and I saw this advertisement for circular strength
training and I went to Bellingham Washington and I did the CST course with
Scott Sonnen and you know how it's why is that relevant to what we're talking
about Scott Sonnen is the guy who kind of
coined the term the saddle and he's a Samba instructor distinguished master of
sport American and he basically developed that leg lock game of the
saddle which everyone does today especially you know if you're in nogi
that's a big part of the jiu jitsu I don't think he gets the credit for it
but he even had a video that came out that didn't really go over to I guess
like as far as like it is everyone knows it now mm-hmm but he doesn't get the
credit for it so I am I did want to mention that I trained with him with the
clubs and did that certification but then afterwards we went and trained
together and you know I learned some things about the basically the thing I
learned is no martial art has all the answers and if you understand the
counters to a martial art you can counter it if you are on time and you do
the technique right and you know from his end Sambo judo I think he did a
Systema as well I don't really know too much about that but I was concerned with
learning Sambo and he was like hey you know you can even if you like compete in
Samba but you're gonna have to get your throws together cuz I was just purely
jujitsu and I was like all right yeah we'll want to get back home I'll do some
judo I'm like yeah I'll do some judo for like two weeks and then I'll be ready
for Samba and I've gotten to judo and I learned
and judo is its own thing mm-hmm and so I never really I never really had
much contact with Scotts on and after that but you know he foreign for him I
probably have never done judo so then I started training at judo America and
continued on in judo so I think it's very important if you are a true Jitsu
cut you definitely need to learn some type of stand up fighting whether it's
striking or throwing wrestling learn something that you can do stand up
because if you cannot get the takedown were you gonna do block punches with
your face so you don't want to do that and so where's it all lead to where does
it lead to you what are you doing now well I was uh teaching jiu-jitsu at
Studio 540 and doing a lot of privates personal training it's people probably
know right now studio 540 is defunct but I'm still continuing on with personal
training and jiu-jitsu privates and also I travel so at a certain point you know
mark mm-hmm we uh another mutual friend that started with us in jujitsu another
team guy he had a school in Coronado and invited me to come you know train there
and teach there so I started doing that and a Russian guy came in a judoka and
he was curious about jiu-jitsu and started training with us and then he
said hey you know we need to see we want to see some jiu-jitsu in Russia and he
said hey if one of you guys want to come out you know come on out and teach me
and I'll set everything up and there were no takers I was like yeah well I'm
not doing anything I'll go and so I ended up going to Vladivostok and so
I've been going there like you know once a year every two years and work with
those guys um I had a guy that I uh that I worked with in Germany
Ramar he owns a tensho it's a really great school in Hamburg Germany so
usually on this trip I'll go to Russia Vladivostok fly away across to Moscow
and then over to Humber of Germany train with those guys then I stopped over in
New York visit my brother and then all the way back here where you have you
learned a new Russian in every country I've been and everyone speaking English
I'm really had home incentive to really learn much how long do you usually stay
in Russia for usually two weeks so your true your training in Russia with mostly
judo based no guys ditch Sambo guys just fighters nice lot Vladivostok team
jiu-jitsu jiu-jitsu guys yeah okay yeah I mean jiu-jitsu is a worldwide martial
art right now that's everywhere well I guess I thought that cuz you said
when the guy came to your school he was a judo guy yeah he was at judo guy and
and basically in the judo world all this and you know that jiu-jitsu guy you know
they're they're learning like if you go on the ground you're probably gonna get
tapped out and so he wanted to learn something a bit about BJJ and so now one
oh and and the issue there is their training with dole instructor mm-hmm
they're just going off video and there are some hardcore highly skilled guys
over there and and women I mean like this it's uh I mean in this area where
we're training before class they have a Samba and they have judo men's and
women's you know and and everyone's going hard so I mean I think everyone
needs to especially here Brazil get ready because in Russia they're like
they're doing I think that it's Russian Federation on Brazilian jiu-jitsu
but they allow all the leglocks hmm so you have guys who are highly skilled at
Samba learning and and if you're a highly skilled at Samba if you're a
master spore in Samba you're probably a master sport in judo or at least a black
belt because the styles are very very similar except it's you know Sam of
course has the leg locks so you better be prepared because I think you know
over time they're used to something that you're not used to and it can make a
difference when you say they're used to something I'm saying like do Aggie
tournament and all leg locks are allowed or got it got it yeah in ten years
what's gonna happen yeah when those guys can pee here yeah and they're gonna have
to at some point in America open up leg locks for the game it's just it's silly
right well the issue is it's a sport and
they're looking at you know long-term health of people and I can tell you when
I'm in a Samba class like looking at the Samba fighters in Russia I think
everyone has at least one leg rat yeah don't you think it's a little bit too
like the culture over there is a little bit different just in terms of like yeah
Russian culture is very different why cuz they're getting nuts more often
like the guys relay but like you say you see everyone with a leg wrap meaning
they kind of maybe have an injury or hurt legs yes
leg locks and stuff yeah that's what I was thinking – I was like wait but like
we have like no ghee has leg locks here yeah so we don't have that much of that
but then how you say like Russian they go hard
so consider leg locks is being a complete part of the the jiu-jitsu
culture or Sambo and all this but they go hard yeah that's when you're gonna
see that yeah and and also what is complete I mean if you look at you know
having um trained in judo Nell your con owes original vision was you have a
style where you can strike you can throw oh you're still moving on the ground I
can submit so it's I think it's in Paris whether you learn wrestling judo samba
you need some type of stand-up art mmm you know that's the full complete system
yeah it's tough to uh like the kids that wrestle like you like if you if you
start jiu-jitsu I'm not saying you're not gonna be able to pull this off but
if you start jiu-jitsu at whatever you know 24 or 31 or whatever you start
later in life to get the reps in for the takedown game when you're a little bit
more fragile and compared to a kid that wrestled you know six years old eight
years old ten years old through high school had you know hundreds of
tournaments hundreds of hours in the on the mat doing takedowns and by the time
like that's why the UFC is so dominated by wrestlers because they are they have
that in thing just embedded they don't they don't need to learn that that's
embedded in them they know how to get that takedown they know how to get out
takedown they know how to scramble there's a huge part of that that
wrestling comes in and that's what's when you start taking that and you just
make replace wrestling with Sambo and now you've been doing that your whole
life which has takedowns yes it also has submissions it also has knee locks and
fault locks I wish that there was just something like unified grappling that's
that's a vision you know that was kind of happening at studio 540 yeah all
different kinds of black belts from all over coming together to teach their
jujitsu I mean because but beyond that right
what you need is unified grappling where the whole world says these are the rules
like these are the rules the whole world so wet in the Olympics there's no more
judo wrestling at freestyle wrestling Grieco it's just like grappling unified
grappling if you were if you want a like if we're gonna get invaded by aliens
that grapple if we're gonna compete with them we got a unified we gotta unify
this pretty quickly otherwise they're gonna have a leg up because they've been
out there you know in there planet sir and there they've combined it
all together they got a unified grappling potentially
this is what are we gonna tell the aliens Jeff hey no no reaping here hey
no what is it no guillotines you know no guillotines from that position we can't
tell that to an alien they don't care there's they're there to win that's very
true unified grappling free the world you
know on that subject this might rub a few people the wrong
way but I think when I look at you Jitsu one thing I think that can really help
is to make a rule set of that switched like in other words if I pass your guard
that's three points make that an advantage and make actual submissions
like if you have to escape it those are the points we what finishes fights where
you could actually have killed this person
chokes make those four points and if I see I have the choke on and you're
trying to escape and you get out as four points and then this way people are
going after submissions more rather than because I had a judoka judoka buddy Ross
and he would do jujitsu tournaments in the black belt division
he's a judo black belt and he would win some of these tournaments
you know 5050 I would assume but basically he's like I'm gonna throw and
stay on top and stay out of submissions and basically he could do that at will
cuz he's like a legit judoka and that's that's a problem realized you do it this
way that's just an advantage but you now you're forcing people to go for the
submission more yeah well maybe that's part of the unified grappling rules is
chokes four points arm locks shoulder locks type stuff maybe three points BJJ
doesn't like leg locks too much make that two points here's the only here's
the only argument I'll say against that if you're in a fight and you get across
side you get past someone's guard that's a real problem
like if we if we go to a real fight that's why I think it's so advantageous
well that's why I think it's a big deal because they say oh if you pass the
guard if we you want a fight you're got a you're in a much much much worse
situation than you were in a second ago right so that's and if you're mounted
even worse right half guard a little bit but so I think there's there Elian if
you give up the back obviously in a real fight that's the that's the biggest
problem so you remove the striking but if you
added the striking in those positions are in some ways even more important
even more relevant so I'm not leaning philosophy I didn't say the relevance of
the of those positions or any less I'm just saying for a sport to get people to
go more for submissions rather than cuz they're a we've seen it mm-hmm
bunch of guys who wrestled in high school I got to take down advantage I'll
take this person down wiggle a little bit to make sure the ref thinks I'm
still doing something they stand us up I'd do it again and they won and they
never submitted anyone yeah and you attempted a submission yeah you feel
cheated you're on the bottom doing gar the whole time and couldn't do anything
because you got stalled out yeah installing is a real thing there you
can't if someone's stalling that's like a hard thing to undo you know I mean
without strikes yeah yeah and then you had the strikes in yeah that's a whole
different thing so you're talking about essentially like with the philosophy you
know of fighting yeah you know it's kind of key to that but for the sport you're
you're absolutely right like even if like even just stalling in general like
even if you're just up by some points that you got from all your cool
takedowns or whatever and then they take you down and you're now they're only
kind of they're only the only thing they can do really is tap you out because
there's maybe a minute left they can't score 14 points in a minute to not get
tapped out if someone's just my whole thing yeah your mouth you just like the
draw and you just don't want to get get tapped out that's hard for the guy it's
hard to tap someone out like way harder to tap someone out when they're their
whole thing is just not to get tapped out so yeah it can be like an issue
for the sport I think what philosophy do you follow you know you still get the
same result of guard passing in positional dominance because well what
kind of arm walks are you doing when you're in someone's guard there you know
I'm not gonna do a Kimura to you if I'm in your guard since you still forced to
I mean those principles of also Comey those are all positions right of pinning
someone those are still gonna be important I mean in judo
there's no there are no points for guard passing it's just pin this person I know
if I have you pinned if I want to I could bash you or I could go into
submissions right yeah so that the advantage for guard passing or whatever
isn't the points it's because you're now you're cross-eyed there's your advantage
so it's it's sort of like so use it then yeah it's not such a great you know use
it but you're not giving points for that getting stuff over here
that's the Jeff Higgs way yeah and I'm not change you know I'm you know it's
just the thought you know maybe it's nothing thought but the idea is to keep
the purity of going for submissions in jujitsu I mean I think with rules that
we're seeing in BJJ judo is even worse because it had a longer history of
taking dangerous moves out mm-hmm and that's what I see happening in BJJ yeah
well I think the ultimate role set for grappling is no striking that that's it
no time limit no submissions are barred just you're not allowed to punch or
strike the other person or kick them other than that you can get after it and
you can go as long as it takes which means people are gonna have to you
know get up yeah yeah come on let's face it I mean the sport thing you know you
can't make the audience know you know five well I don't know if I'm somebody
smart people do to other sports that take a really long time and they've
managed to televise that baseball game takes many hours to write so you would
occasionally you'd get some weird match that goes like nine hours before someone
taps out from dehydration that's what I want to see I want to see someone tap
out for dehydration you know what I'm saying cuz you're not
allowed to get a drink you got to go in hydrated you got to go into fuel in your
system yeah so yeah it's not that different I think than baseball but yeah
because baseball you have like understood little breaks that's why we
can hang out right that's why it can last so long
yeah edge it sued on no time limit jiu-jitsu tournament there would be like
a limitation just by Nature yeah just by the limitations of humans for the
audience remember then I'm gonna be happy about that because at any moment
the match could technically turn around for that for one of them I so know that
as you run three matches at the same time so two of those matches are gonna
at least one of those out of three is gonna be kind of exciting at some point
so just running three matches you focus the television over there I got this
solved what did I have name for this what was I naming it you know no unified
grappling yeah but there's just like no no time limit death matches basically
because it's the only way there's one way to win cool make the other person
tap out yeah that's the one way you win yeah that's a game changer yeah remember
the Hickson tournaments that were like that it was you but you could also win
by 15 points yeah so those those those matches would not go along hmm those
matches would not go long you could win by 15 points or submission
and those matches would be like seven minutes four minutes 10 minutes
occasionally there'd be some you know 20 minute match yeah rarely but the Gracie
tournament is similar I mean they they give you points for guard pass mount and
back control those are the only points and you know the rest is continued until
someone gets submitted or or 15 points yeah because 15 points does show you win
and if you beat somebody by 15 points that means positionally if you were in a
real fight you would if you destroy them yeah it's horrible when you get somebody
that's really good like positioning like an MMA fighter to roll with and in like
I'll do this with Taylor we got a guy here named Taylor Johnson he needs to
savage wrestler and he savage and everything but you know he gets a
position on me and I'm just thinking if he if we were in a fight right now
he would just he would be just killing me he would be punching me in the head
until I was dead repeatedly like repeatedly dead so yeah if anybody wants to get ahold of
you like anyone who wants to get a seminar because that's another thing you
know you mentioned it self-defense and how that's kind of what your focus is
it's really solid like you have your own little techniques in there you got moves
I know you do weapons stuff if somebody wants to get
ahold of you to get some kind of training what do they do who do they
contact I guess they could contact me well how would they do that so this is
an issue Jocko sent me a text last night and said do you have Instagram and I
said no I don't have any social media mm-hmm and basically I can give you my
email you can call me and leave a message do you have like an email that
could be open to the public because you don't wanna be giving out your email
that's you know you're you're doing your normal personal business on to a bunch
of people all right well let me let me let me make one right now and then I'll
set this email up all right so we will put that out in the future
yeah and I'll post it how to get in touch with Jeff Beck or you got anything
else no that's it it's good good to see you again yeah and then great to be here
thanks for me on yeah man any other any other closing thoughts anything I missed
well I think right now it's a really important thing we're looking at the
talking about the world situation right now and I think it's really important you know
with all these things going on that we somehow get some cohesion because I mean
looking at jujitsu SEAL team all these different ways of destruction it's a lot
easier to destroy than it is to create and you know as we have to start
thinking on a species level I don't really want to get preachy on people but
I mean just something I see if we don't do it humans in general are getting so
good at war and destruction that we're gonna end up killing ourselves and
really all around us you know you have the universe we there's a wake-up call
now the whole planet got caught off guard with the virus luckily I mean
there are a lot of people have died from it but um the death rate is not like 50%
or higher I mean what if Ebola was as contagious as this virus so we have to
be smart with what we're doing basically nature given us human species
a wake-up call on got to start being aware of what's going on outside of our
little bubble the human bubble that's uh basically what I wanted to say there's
like a um this is you know physicist you familiar with all the Kardashev scale no
so a physicist was um astronomer looking out into space you know with his
equipment and what do you look for in space for life and so he started coming
up with things that he would look up look for and he came up with these
levels type 0 type 1 type 2 type 3 and humans right now we're a type 0
civilization civilization right type 1 is when we actually have
a really good control of the planetary systems and then type 2 is one we have
control of the energy of the Sun and type 3 the galaxy you know this is all
hypothetical but the issue is you know with our capability at war right now
we've got to be really careful because if we don't reach that type one level
where you know at a certain point we're going to be able to give there's going
to be food everything for everyone you see I'm saying like over time humans
make things easier mm-hmm and one of the one of the issues we have is all
resources and stuff like that that are if they're in low supply here you have
that starts causing skirmishes and stuff like that so what I'm saying is over
time those problems are gonna be solved but before we reach type 1 a certain
point weapons and and how to fight that also starts to spread and then at a
certain point we can end up destroying ourselves before we even reach type one
civilization and type one type one allows us to leave the planet I just
yeah of course we'll be at a point where uh you know we're not even type one now
and we've left the planet leave the planet and stay somewhere note everyone
has harness the energy of our planet like all the energy not just like oil or
whatever it's like basically utilize 100% of the energy available from our
planet whatever that is that's type-0 type-1 that's type one we're not even
there yet on this thing how do you know the second I was gonna say you just
figured it out are we eating you know we hang out at the same spots you know so
essentially I'm getting at you know we don't want to get caught off guard and I
see there's a lot of separation right now and a lot of social unrest we have
to get through that to a point where we start to unify it's very very tough to
do but hopefully it can happen what do you see as like when you see
the the dis unification like what do you see as things to move in the right
direction of becoming unified again well I think one of the main reasons is not
thinking on a species level and you know when I'm talking about this I feel kind
of funny because it feels like I'm talking in the clouds or something like
that but I'm just being really genuine and sincere about the human species
looking at itself as a species and not as so separate you know in my travels
I've been came from the projects came out to came here and became a seal in uh
San Diego my travels in jujitsu learning their judo traveling around the world
I've seen all kinds of different people you know in SEAL team Southeast Asia
bent down Central America South America Russia and I see everyone really wants
the same thing basics of life you know and and if you if you're in the military
going to Russia it's kind of a big deal in the sense because they were like the
great enemy and I see like a family's over there just like everybody else
everyone's trying to live their life the best they can and the separatism that we
have is making a big problem we're gonna end up killing ourselves before we reach
a level where everything can be better for everyone that way I mean before I
even continues that sound like kind of wacky no no you know what it is actually
like you make a good point where I say and people got to point this out like
people like that's I mean that that's obviously like good that you say that
people do say that everyone's worn out but that's not a lot of time not what
you hear so when like what you're talking about is essentially like you
know how if you have you know you have kids all right where let's say you know
I don't know you have a goal to get somewhere to do something or really just
a general goal as a family where it's like okay our job as parents is to
maintain this household make sure you guys are prepared for life when you grow
up and when you do that you're gonna be successful in whatever way you want to
be and then you can sort of do the same and
around we go right same kind of a perpetuate that species exactly right so
you know in a small smaller analogy is like a family situation but currently in
our family the whole world we're kind of infighting you know the brothers and
sisters will fighting and it'd be like hey he took my thing no no he hit him he
pulled my hair so he goes well you pull my hair back even harder oh and now
they're fighting and then you're like hey don't yell and then the wife is like
hey don't yell at her like that you didn't have to say you know so we're all
in fighting we're forgetting about like we don't forget about I think we get
distracted by just a little micro feeling or the the short-term things
that go on and we start to forget about you know progress you know I mean I just
I don't want to come off sounding high-minded or anything like that you
know I'm just looking at the world per se what has just happened not just our
country but all over the world like this virus has come out and everyone got
caught with their pants down what kind of prep was made everywhere now what if
that virus was more deadly mm-hmm what we have to be smart yeah what would that
would that unify the world against a common enemy or would it separate the
world more and here's remember I had sort of gotten named Peter Atia he's a
doctor and he was a doctor in a in the trauma center an ER doctor in Baltimore
and so I forget the statistics he was dealing with something like 18 puncture
wounds a day so that's shootings and stabbings this is Baltimore you know one
of the worst crime rates in it's actually one of the worst crime rates in
the world I don't know if you knew that it's in the whole world it's one of the
worst crime rates so that's what he's dealing with and what he said was when
you have a family come in that's gone through this kind of trauma usually it's
the loss of someone because these puncture wounds or you know stabbings or
not everyone's as hate to use the word not everyone's as lucky as your brother
was taking a seven-inch knife to the chest and surviving right most people
are gonna die from that and that's what happens so what he said was
if the family is tight their tight-knit family and they and this horrible event
occurs this pressure will make them even tighter
however opposite is also true if there's fractures in the family those fractures
under that pressure explode and it destroys the families so I think what
you're seeing right now and what you're talking about is let's face it in the
world as a species there's fractures right there's
fractures with different countries there's fractures with different
cultures and all of a sudden we just got put under pressure by the disease and
what we're seeing now is we're starting to see these fractures expand and what I
will from my perspective the thing that we miss and I keep trying to say this in
different ways and maybe I mean I'll keep trying to say it you know within
the military what you end up doing is you end up dehumanizing the enemy and
it's kind of a goal right kind of a goal to say you know what I'm gonna have to
go kill these people that's what I'm gonna get told to do I'm gonna go kill
these people so you know what I'm not even gonna call them people because
there's some part of your subconscious that says hey it's not okay to kill
people so you know what I'm gonna call them animals I'm gonna call them savages
I'm gonna call them whatever I'm gonna call them Krauts right World War two I'm
gonna call them gooks in the Korean War we're gonna give them names that's not
people so now we start to dehumanize them and now officer it's a little
easier makes that job a little bit easier to kill them okay so that's war
that's what happens there well what happens when you start looking at of the
different culture and you start doing the same thing because you're like well
I got to take care of the P we're gonna we're getting pressured by this disease
we're getting pressured by it and I'm gonna take care of the people are with
me and what do i do how do i how do I be mentally okay with that I got a good
solution for you I'm gonna dehumanize the other people and now we get
separated and now we don't talk to them and so that's why when you talk about
Jeff when you go these other countries and you start
talking to people all of a sudden they're not Russians to you they're
whatever Ivan you know who they're a person with
a family and it becomes they become humanized to you just like when they
meet you and they go you know they have this horrible vision of what Americans
are like and then they meet you and you're cool
and guess what you all do jujitsu and you like foot locks and it's like all of
a sudden it becomes human but we don't do that we don't humanize each other on
a broad scale which is very strange right now because we should have the
ability to do that better than anyone right now right because we've got all
these communication systems set up where we should be able to say hey everybody
look let's let's be together but instead we show each other the worst
part of our of ourselves and and we place blame instead of taking ownership
and that's kind of how we do so instead of us unifying as you said Jeff this
pressure that gets put on us by something like this virus all of a
sudden we become more fragmented and when we come fragmented the ability to
communicate with each other goes down instead of up and the possibility of
someone actually saying hey hold on a minute you know other human or other
thing wait maybe you have some of the same whatever you just said Jeff about
like hey everyone's pretty much got the same goals right like you said like hey
I want my kids to have a better life than me
I want my kids to do better than me I want them to have a nice be able to be
able to have their own family and kind of repeat what we did here that's kind
of a common theme and it's the same thing in Iraq you know whenever I
explain on Iraqi family to people I say oh if you want to know what an Iraqi
families like it's very easy for me to explain it's like an American family
like if you have you asking some Iraqi dad what his goal is his goal is to take
care of his kids you know build up a house build the business or their kid
that's what their goals are the same thing when you ask an American dad that
same thing so it's across the board we get in these situations where instead
of where we're all like a mass dehumanization mode
well Howard the relevance to jujitsu is there is
definitely a clannish aspect to all martial arts a trained Taekwondo your
training boy died you know you're nothing you know this kind of attitude
of well and from my experience going and learning a different martial art
starting from ground up you see that the martial arts also all have the same goal
of I get into an altercation I can take care of myself
you know so it's I think learning this stuff has has kind of it's changed me in
a way where I'm trying to instead of compare and contrast and trying to see
how we're more similar rather than how we're more different that's a way the
way to say it yeah and the other interesting thing about let's face it if
you if you know jujitsu more Thai boxing wrestling Taekwondo ninjutsu can call
you if you know if you know 27 different martial arts right and somebody
introduces you to the 29th if you have an open mind you will learn something
yes from that other thing right it's kind of like I mean back in the day Jeff
you and I lived through this where it was a jujitsu move or it was bullshit if
it wasn't a bit if it wasn't a jujitsu move like this is a jujitsu move then
it's bullshit right that's that's the old mentality
like that is not a jujitsu move so therefore it can't work and it shouldn't
be part of the system it shouldn't be part of the world that's a bad attitude
to have and it's the same attitude if you look at another culture and you're
like okay well there's a lot of things that in that culture that is doesn't
make sense to me what does make sense what how do you open your mind to say
okay well at least if I don't want to be a part of that culture what can I take
from it what can I understand from it how can I relate to it so it makes me
and my culture a little bit better but more understanding have a better
grasp on the world and we we don't do that just like the old-school martial
arts and specifically the old-school jiu-jitsu was if it's not part of this
then it if it's not jiu-jitsu don't don't do it doesn't work and it's don't
bring it in here and that's the way I mean I think I guess you could say like
Bruce Lee you know he was kind of an early adopter and you know if it doesn't
you know he had some great quotes of which I can can't think of any right now
but it's some work what's useful discard through there you go thank you absorb
what's useful discard the rest so that's the attitude to have and yet what we
like to do in martial arts and in life is discard everything else we're not
listening I don't want to know what you know what you know doesn't make sense to
me and I don't want to be a part of it I hope you know I'm not and I don't have
any misconceptions like you know we're all gonna be holding hands singing
Kumbaya and all this stuff I'm not saying anything well I don't want don't
hold hands with people but over basically at what I'm saying is over
time what people have now they didn't have a century ago you know humans
progress over time they get better all people do this and the same thing with
you know our war and stuff like that we got to find answers or we're gonna end
up destroying ourselves or in the fights against ourselves something else gonna
get us and this is a warning sign from nature you know there's a whole universe
out there I mean when you start studying things in science like astronomy and
stuff like that and how really big and expansive you know reality really is
we're in a really little small space now I know maybe to some religious people
you know science perspective is not really that great but um I'm trying to
deal with what we know with some certainty you know what I do know
certainly is we're in this life right now we want to make it the best we can
before it's over and so that's that's why I was uh I
wanted to put that point out in an honor on on a personal level like it seems
like you're doing your best to kind of reach out the world and make that happen through through jiu-jitsu through
martial arts yeah I I have to say even SEAL team I mean getting in SEAL team
coming out of the projects I don't know anyone from the projects this ended that
was in the teams during that time and you know I was definitely unique in that
aspect so um you get introduced to all different people and you know when you
travel around the world same thing and are we going to keep doing what we're
doing because I think the path right now might not be the best one and again with
humility because I know when you start talking like this people are like you
know shut the hell up shut the fuck up whatever this whatever the case when you
when you look at the is the the idea I think I think here's here's the crazy
thing the most simplistic thing that you've said is the thing that people
have such a hard time with which is looking at all humans as one species
that's why when you put that video out last week a couple we stand about
everyone being human I was like you know that was a cool thing that you know it's
it's uh you know especially right now in the state of the US what's going on you
know it's really important that we stay smart you know because there is still
this virus out there that we have to be aware of I was you know in my studies I
have a book here on pandemics mm-hmm when you look at the 1918 pandemic you
had three waves some say maybe in a fourth wave if you do the research but
the first way was regular flu that started at
March 4th 1918 and then over the next few months in the fall the virus mutated
and then kill upwards of 50 million people that's a possibility
mm-hmm so we have to be smart with what we're doing I understand the social
aspects that we're looking at – that's important but um you know the health of
the planet – is also really important gotta look out for each other gotta look out for each other it's true
I think that's a good place to wrap this up a little bit I have a question okay I
said you saw that video that chuckle made a few weeks ago where'd you see
that video YouTube oh you sons call you out or one of those guys you have social
media but you're always on private you're that guy buddy I stand corrected
he's a darker yeah yeah okay I dig it I dig it
what do you think you think you could make an Instagram all right yeah or you
just have no interest in it whatsoever that has been my main thought regarding
social media I mean like just the idea of like let me take a picture and put it
online and show everybody what I'm doing just I have no really um no affinity to
do that it's a I had a Facebook page I started I actually opened it up and then
I never touched again I was having a weird conversation with my two daughters
the other day sure and what they were they were basically saying they don't
like Instagram because and and it's you know how you hear people say like oh
it's comparative you know you compare you enough comparing yourself with other
people and all in silence oh yeah you know oh you compare with this you
compare with that you compare with you're basically comparing your life
with the absolute best view that everyone else has of their own life you
know that they're posing in front of the Lambo or whatever in order to look cool
and and I gotta admit I don't really think of that you don't I mean I don't
really think like I'm not really out comparing and me probably because
like almost fifty years old and there's an you know it's kind of like um it's an
old man that doesn't care anything but you know when you're younger you're like
wait a second how is that person how's that other person that's my age or a
little younger a little older how they have this amazing situation going on and
I'm over here you know with not an amazing situation yeah so I'm not
worried about you getting caught in that trap jaw I think he'll be okay to
Instagram that's the one you just put up yeah you take it you can put you put
words under it too you know you can film videos the videos can be
ten minutes long there's something called IG TV expert oh yeah so I'm
feeling like pretty sad right now explain well the funny the really funny
thing is when I got on this path god I hate even using that word I well I
started social media um Tim Ferriss when I got done with interviewing with Tim
Ferriss he's like do you have do you have social meeting like no he's like
you should get him like no and he goes mm you really need to get it and I said
kind of like okay I mean he's a really smart guy and does really well with what
he does I mean amazingly successful guy and just cool before our work yes yeah
so he's telling me like you got a guy that's done what Tim's done and I'm just
becoming a civilian kind of and he goes yeah you need to get Twitter he goes
just get it and I said he said I'll show you how to use it he never showed me
anything but the good thing is you know what he knew that I didn't know is that
you there's nothing to show like this is how you make it work you put up put
little words in here and and the thing that you'll find interesting I guess if
it's using the right way I mean I've made all kinds of incredible connections
through social media all kinds I mean I would say 50% of the guests on this
podcast and I've had some amazing guests were through social media they DM door
they emailed or they contact or whatever and I'm talking I'm getting the World
War 2 veterans on here and Vietnam that's I mean incredible
people that it's an honor to be able to have them on here a lot of them come
from social media so I it's a great tool it's a great way to communicate with
other people and just like everything else in the world if you do it if you go
too far with it it can absolutely turn it into a negative yes and there's some
pitfalls to like people will tell you stuff on on social media that they would
never tell it to your face just every day Oh smack talkers care what it yeah
exactly yeah so there's that if you go in knowing that okay that's the thing
then yeah then you might not hit hit the some of the people dude have you ever
had a hobby before yeah okay so let's say your hobby is knitting right and you
get home and you're like okay I'm gonna knit some yarns or whatever and that's
kind of your thing there are some people there hobby what they do for fun is get
on social media and trying to basically terrorize other people troll yeah
trolling I understand all of that stuff you went up it's just like I've just
never felt like I want to do that really let me take a picture of myself and then
post it for everybody in the world to start looking at it just seems like a to
me yeah yeah in that way it is it is what I see it's a change in society it
kind of almost takes away on anonymity you are everyone's a star in a sense
yeah yeah but a lot of times like if you have a business or something right and
you know how like you're like okay I want to go to this I don't know chicken
restaurant or something or maybe even a place where maybe the experience there
is more significant like um I don't you a martial arts place or whatever and you
know you can go to Yelp or not an old-school Google Yellow Pages whatever
and you don't have the number how we're talking about yellow pages right now and
you know they're like okay well now I got a drive down there too just to check
it out I'm not even committed to you know so if
you have an Instagram for example um you know you can see pictures of the place
you can see descriptions you can see comments of people that you know may or
may not like it or whatever so you can you know it is useful in a lot of
different ways other than everyone trying to be a star even though I think
that's one of the more prevalent uses for Instagram yeah by the way you know
waiters the whole thing is you don't have to post a picture of yourself no
you can post a picture of a knife or a picture of wall or a picture of a plant
or your line of a star or or sweaty single single one or whatever you're
gonna do you're gonna do that so you don't have to necessarily you know just
pose for pictures for yourself with your shirt off or whatever yeah flexing you
know but yeah that's but you are right though that is true but then again you
know what if you posted this one let's say you're doing a seminar you post one
picture of the cool picture of the seminar or whatever and then someone's
like hey you know your shoulders look real solid you've been working on so the
next one you might be a little bit more compelled to post a picture with me
maybe like in some good lighting or something you know and then the comments
start rolling he seems that you see the slippery slope though but this and
there's someone that says yeah but he's got skinny wrists right and then all of
a sudden you're trying to have a wrist workout oh yeah yeah me and then of
course that guy's now your enemy cuz he's talking trash to you you know so
you're now you're back and forth with him and now you gotta check to see what
your friend said about that guy saying you know so it's a thing you know you
gotta watch out back in stone I think you'll be all right bro yeah it's like
in a sense like a public record cuz at a certain point right you're dead but the
3d stuff is still there it's like a record maybe a hundred years from now
they're they can access who was this person
what was this person like what are they into it's like a historical account of
individuals yeah no doubt about it voluntary yeah yeah I got some friends
that that have died and their social media pages are there and I'm so happy
that their social media pages are there cuz it's like yeah I can go on they're
still alive yeah still hang out a little bit you know
so there's definitely a positive in that regard yeah was that your question neck
on you remember what your question was oh actually you know what my question
was key remember when you were doing the eight pull-ups the pull-ups and you're
like I got the eight like almost got what's the qualified thing for full UPS
how many of you have to get back then was eight oh okay so you had to do 42
push-ups 50 sit-ups eight pull-ups then you had to run a mile and a half in
Boots and long pants for I think 12 minutes and 30 seconds and then you had
to run you got do you swim using side stroke or breaststroke 500 meters I
think in the same time like 12 minutes and 30 seconds something like that and
this is all in one go or is it like day one you do this like one after the other
swims usually first then calisthenics stuff and then the run at the end got
you yeah those those let that level of qualification is so not bad yeah yeah
like if you're a guy sitting there going what I can do a pause yeah you're
totally wrong not totally wrong you're gonna get destroyed if you take you 11
minutes and 30 seconds or whatever run in a mile and a half and you think
you're gonna make it through buts you're not even close yeah there I mean back in
the day and I'm surprised they haven't changed it and they have changed it now
like once you're in the pipeline you compete against everyone else so the way
it works now Jeff is what you get two buds in order to go into a class they
give everyone in the class a screening a physical screening test the top 165
people go if you don't make it you don't go into class and if you don't make it I
think two times you're done so it's a competition just to get into class see
who gets the best score so any pull-ups ain't getting you nowhere is it like the
enhanced screening test cuz I remember Ken the budge you got another screening
test when I in 74 where everything was higher like 75 push-ups like 12 pull-ups
or something like that I just know it's a competition so the max the minimum
fluctuates because if there's a bunch of studs in your class and you're not going
to pull up like oh yeah sorry you're not in class
yeah it's like later the crazy thing is no matter what they
do to those standards the same know where people quit but it's the weirdest
thing it's definitely the cold the cold water
the cold water the lack of oxygen in the sleep and the lack of sleep and then and
then those are that right there is 90% of the quitters I think then you have
some people that you know whatever they got some weird they'll get in their head
psychologically and they look man you know you gotta recognize that they're
gonna try and make you quit yeah so if they see some kind of weakness that they
see they can trip you up and they might here's the thing you go up or you go
down you know they might be like hey no one's gonna want to have you on this in
a platoon listen man you seem like a good guy right little ego up whatever
you want opportunity if you got a team I wouldn't want to work with you you don't
look like you can carry your weight and like you're actually by staying here
yeah the rest your boat Pro crew you're putting them at risk in the SEAL Teams
so even a good like if you're a good-hearted person that has good intent
you want to take care your teammates the best thing you can do to take care your
teammates right now is quick yeah Jim you know mentally frustrated so they're
gonna figure out a common at you yeah and when you're cold wet and tired yeah
that's the other thing you keep you know people when you're cold wet and tired
man those scripts this option start popping up in people's heads and they
start you know maybe they weren't thinking about it but now they're
thinking well I really don't want to let my teammates down and that hot coco
looks good over there I'm gonna go get me some hot cocoa yes we had in our
flesh Swiss Miss hot cocoa and Krispy Kreme Doughnuts oh that's an electric
blanket sitting on the beach so you're sitting
in 58 degree water jackhammering freezing cold and there's some quitter
up there with an electric blanket on and a hot cup of cocoa they're calling you
out I laughed at that craziness it's so you if that quits he doesn't just go
he doesn't just leave he's still there they'd be very green make us they make a
positive spectacle out oh yeah well here's the thing though and they treat
him like a bro – they don't they're not harsh on okay they're not like they're
not like I'll get over your quitter they're like it's okay yeah they're done
all psyops of everybody to me that's the worst Martin there because if you're
just like oh yeah you're here's all the quitters on display look at them
enjoying their hot cocoa it kind of creates this divide like oh I don't want
to be that guy looks nice no I think that guy's my husband actually you know
my yes okay yeah he made a decision yeah you know this is probably a good
decision it's good decision for the teams he really cares about the teams
because he doesn't want to bring the teams down not look at you trying to
hurt the teams see I think I understand you a little bit more now just a little
bit I get it Jack all right so um I guess
we're all probably gonna start training in jiu-jitsu if we're not already yes I
guess we're probably gonna be swinging some kettlebells working out trying to
get better trying to humanize each other yes we're just moving in a positive
direction yes sir what do you got for a second Charles well we're gonna keep
ourselves in the game with what jaco fuel supplements supplementation
important you know specially when your body starts falling apart right okay
joint warfarin krill oil super krill oil he tries to get a problem your joints go
out right you're gonna be thanking you know what and you're taking the krill
oil and joint oh yeah no super grill super killer yes sir cuz the krill oil
is made with a regular krill red natural has not been screened supercro they made
it through the training yes sir and they're ready to hook you up it makes
sense to don't get regular krill which is also super Krell yes sir
also discipline both kinds of discipline by the way the supplement discipline
okay for your brain or your body – but you know all these things are gonna keep
you in the big time jiu-jitsu or otherwise so Jeff
kovat before at the end of at the end of January I went to Seattle New York San
Francisco Los Angeles Washington DC and Austin Texas and in each one of those
locations as shook hands with one to two thousand people and bro hugged fifty
percent of those people I did not get covin matter of fact it never even liked
it never even got after my immune system at all I got the test I'm not saying
that it's like this genetic thing but it's now proven that if you're healthy
right if you workout yes if you eat clean yes if you take vitamin D sure
also this will in back to the discipline thing we do have cans of discipline RTD
cans stands for ready to drink in the industry yes sir those are good those
are that I'd say actually in what I'm on both
I'm be honest with you mmm the cans and the powder yeah there's something really
good about just cracking open a cold camp it's true and oh yeah Pete guys
thanks for the refrigerator by the way I mean you know Joe's head is on it which
you know makes emotions about that whole thing but overall good big hit at my
house Radley sent me this refrigerator with Jacko's head face on the
refrigerator and very strange you want to talk about strange tunnel Cove it's
strange right the world strange we got strange people running for president
when your head starts showing up on your friends refrigerators that's some
strange sighs that's some strange time yes sir it is get some milk get some
protein in you proteins better than yeah protein for protein which by the way the
have you tried the protein that make Jeff because if you haven't tried it
it's 100 percent guaranteed to stop Spanish flu it's guaranteed to stop
there this room it's the lab tested the whole
you don't have to worry about it I'm one of those what it was it made of well
this I don't know all the ingredients but I will tell you this it's clean
protein in the form of a dessert that's what I do know I don't know the
ingredients we're gonna have to contact Brian what's made out of I'm one of
those wacky vegans okay yeah you're not eating because no cuz it's got a Cassie
and it's got the milk protein in it Oh Matt and egg protein so you're just out
across the board yeah you're gonna have to uh well you're gonna have to eat
something else we inside unique Ovid I want a can of that stuff oh yeah yeah
you'll go out and style also tea chocolate tea yeah I want something a
little lighter that some that I like that yeah and you know since you are a
vegan it's not only vegan but it's also organic sort of certified organic you
see think I'm playing around over here I got your back I got your back rigged I'm
I'm gonna stop you from catching Spanish flu probably we prevent Kovan from
getting in your system and I'm gonna protect your feegan rights right over
here yes is there such thing as vegan rights
it's just regular rights right yeah yes sir isn't the vegan rights a thing I'd
not that I know of but I don't know maybe we could start a movement anyway
so these vegan rights a thing not that I know okay oh man just like
there's no keto rights there's no other dietary philosopher and arguments that
no vegan is a dietary change sorry and it there's a philosophy behind it for
sure oh yeah 100% I dig it too but oh I don't
think you can choose that kind of philosophy and then gain sort of you
know more rights or lose right never that matters oh boy I'm gonna start a
keto right movement all right well I'm going to Paleo rates over here right on
straight up okay I got start paleo first yeah anyway speaking of a thing Jiu
Jitsu right anyway everything we just talked about you can all vote you can
get on Origin mancom or you can get it at the Vitamin Shoppe yes sir the
vitamin shoppe be what was the first one origin main calm origin main
yep main like the state mister domain origin man because of your origins yes also at origin mein kampf jiu-jitsu keys
and rash guards okay these keys and rash guards are made 100 percent of America
100 percent even the cotton that they grow to form the material even that
grown in America 100 percent 100 percent it's a big deal so yeah when we go back
to jiu-jitsu we need a new key if you don't have one already even if you do
have one grab an original yeah that's why you know one thing about jiu-jitsu I
wanted to say to for all those people who are like sweating the load about you
know I haven't trained in a while you know I am had an injury from the
military that just got worse doing jiu-jitsu my neck got hurt really badly
so I was supposed to get fusion on a c5 to c7 and I was out for two years
I just didn't train so when you come back you know Jiu Jitsu is not going
away so when you come back you will get better all those techniques you've been
working on that stuff's kind of just just standing in your mind mixing and
matching and forming into new things you'll be better once you get your
conditioning back yeah don't do not sweat it like a lot of people like I'm
looking at these I haven't trained in a while yet but the conditioning thing
that's gonna be a thing especially if you like to go hard right you're gonna
jump back in there try to go hard in Braille you're gonna yeah when you come
back come back smart just nice and slow easy get it actually and I think it's
also while you're not rolling do your conditioning yes no it is a lifestyle
you eat right train right you know you got to have your conditioning going on
so you should be doing that in other words stay on the path and also when you
come back you don't necessarily have to ramp it up you could just go 17 rounds
deathmatches come and get it anyway yeah so yeah I get or Jinky if
you love you know when you get back into it if you haven't already got back yeah
yeah anyway a lot of stuff on there or do you mean calm boots boots jeez oh
yeah t-shirts all ain't it all made in America in the good old US of A it's
true also chuckles the store it's called Jocko store merchandise super original
yeah creative whatever but hey man it works jockle story easy
to remember that's where you can get t-shirts discipline equals freedom you
know this one that I got on good you know represent oh you know a lot of cool
stuff on this hand I got on yeah def core all day to the core all day all
day yeah doctor so doc calm if you like something a man get something also
subscribe to this podcast you can scrapped her wherever you can leave a
review we will laugh at your review if it's funny and if it's cool
yes and if it's not funny it's not clone doesn't have any layers well we
appreciate it cool still what's so cool would you uh like when you're looking at
comments and stuff you get a lot of do you get some negative stuff like people
trying to fire it up on you for this podcast yeah almost none
it's really cool everyone's super stoked on it but yeah you know some people give
some feedback that might be considered negative but I look at it with an open
mind and I say hmm maybe there's some adjustments I could make maybe I could
do a better job we also got the thread we're almost out with a new thread with
a new name and all that stuff I'll let you know grounded podcast where we talk
about jiu-jitsu or your kid podcast where we talk about being a warrior kid
don't forget if the warrior kids soap including killer soap Irish oats Irish
Oaks ramped rinsed calm or on the jaw closed or website you can get yourself
some soap so you and everyone that you know get clean so the byline is is uh what's this
called the the standard operating procedure is I do a little bit of a
build-up and then I say stay clean and you just took my byline yeah men so
normally I would say hey so everyone so you everyone in you and your family can
stay clean and echo usually goes like this
but can you you took the glory amen good I like if you said that clean which is
also you know the precursor to stay in Crete yes yes yes for those of us who
are not clearly quite yet going down quick um so yeah we got a bunch of
podcasts we got a YouTube channel that you can subscribe to if you want to see
echoes if you haven't seen this yet Jeff echo puts ridiculously crazy amounts of
explosions and fire and Terminator heads into his videos because he's all into
you know whatever that's called CGI well I just watched uh terminated the other
day and that was what I studied in school – what terminator video
terminated III Avenue true Media Arts degree so my specialization was 3d
animation Oh both Maya and light wave and digital video so video editing and
compositing and stuff he's kind of like um you know the enlisted guy that
doesn't like the officers because they think they know what they're talking
about because they went to college he just he I felt it even exude that at all
like respect you know he's appear we're peers in that way oh yeah we're peers
now that degree you have doesn't mean anything apparently we're peers see how
I like the instigator yes sir alright so we got a YouTube
channel we got psychological warfare we got flip side canvas comm where you
can get visual representation of the path got a bunch of books the code
leadership strategy and tactics way to work at one two and three miking the
dragons discipline equals freedom Field Manual extreme ownership for the
dichotomy leadership a salon front my leadership consultancy EF online
komm if you want to talk to me and hang out with me and hang out with everyone
on the Echelon front team go to EF online.com and come and ask questions we
solve leadership's leadership problems that's what we do
every day come and check it out we're on there EF online comm the muster coming
up Phoenix Arizona September 16th and 17th in Dallas Texas December 3rd and
4th extreme ownership comm for details we do we usually do an introduction of
jiu-jitsu at those things I'm not sure what's gonna be happening because of the
current kovat environment cuz you know what Jeff you know what we do we try and
be smart yeah so we're gonna try and be smart and we may or may not do that
EF overwatch if you need people leaders at your team go to EF overwatch comm
where we take leaders that understand the principles that we talked about in
this podcast and they can take them and bring them to your organization also
America America's mighty warriors dot org
momily that's mark Lee's mom and she has been on a mission on a mission since she
lost her son on a mission to help service members their families gold star
families around the world if you want to donate or you want to get involved go to
America's mighty warriors org and if you haven't had enough of my plodding
platitudes or you need more of echos misplaced mentions then you can find us
on the interwebs on Twitter Instagram and on Facebook echoes out echo Charles
I am at Jocko willing Jeff is gonna make some kind of social media of some kind
and we will tag him and he's gonna post a picture of his face yeah if you want
to youtube if you want to see what Jeff looks like on YouTube you can come on
here and check him out where you probably already know what echo Charles
looks like and apparently echo Charles does not look like he how he sounds you
know what's pretty funny about that I do have a client that I do private with
and I don't think he's ever seen the YouTube channel he just watches he just
listens to the podcast and he's like he doesn't think he doesn't has no idea
what you look like and he's like he thinks that I think he thinks you're
kind of a small guy yeah for sure apparently EKKO Charles sounds like a
skinny white boy hipster hipster hipsters often say like this yeah pretty
hip I guess but yeah that does not surprise me I said no I should Craig man
this guy's pretty big guy yes we'll get that we'll get your social media we'll
figure it out hopefully if not we'll get you an email and if not we will find an
address that people can write you letters – they're gonna mail Compubox
yeah and if not we can get smoke signals going yeah
– Jeff fix Jeff you got any last words yeah first and foremost uh thanks for
having me on I really appreciate it and I do want to say thanks to a family
Fabio for showing me and jiu-jitsu teaching me all my training partners and
Steve I will kind of leave that a little bit anonymous there but big changed my
life from him and also James Harrison who was uh my father's friend and really
kind of was a mentor to me and uh gave me kind of still discipline me on what
it takes to overcome your life's difficulties yeah that's awesome and you
know that that just you know it's a it's a great reminder that when you're going
through life if you make a little effort make a little effort to help somebody
out you know you can actually change the trajectory of their entire life and we
all have people like that that did those things along the way
and clearly that's a great example so be cool to people help them out and with
that thanks Jeff for for coming on thanks for your
service in the team obviously your dedication to jiu-jitsu and thanks for
being my brother for the last thirty years and like hopefully we can squeeze
out another thirty yeah I'm sure we will but there's no guarantees as you once
said to me this is true time will tell and to everyone else that has served or
is serving thank you for keeping the world safe for freedom into the police
and law enforcement out there firefighters paramedics EMTs dispatchers
correctional officers Border Patrol Secret Service thanks to all of you for
holding the line despite low pay and high risk despite the lack of
appreciation that you receive know that most of us are grateful for what you do
to keep us safe and everyone else out there just remember that life is not
easy at all there's gonna be challenges you're gonna get beat down there will be
punishment and you will fail sometimes and that's okay that's okay as long as
you get back up and no matter what remember what my brother Jeff Higgs says
simply do not quit and until next time this is jeff higgs and echo and Jocko

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