[Music] hello everyone i am guivalenti and this is the valencia brothers podcast today we're going to talk about the history of jiu jitsu and to talk about the history of jiu-jitsu who created brazilian jiu-jitsu i have professor pedro valencia hello everyone thank you for being here with us once again and professor joaquin valencia hello everyone very nice to be with all of you here today for a new podcast so it's an often question we get and it's something that's been discussed a lot i think many times the word created created creator is a bit difficult to be employed to be used and i think this podcast can serve as a way for us to exercise a little bit this important historical question and also to give credit to those that came before us rightfully who created slash developed who's really responsible for brazilian jiu-jitsu that's a very very difficult question to answer and let me ask that again jujitsu in brazil i think to be very precise but then the word would not be created because first we must define what is brazilian juice are we talking about the art or we're talking about the competition aspect and the rules and that game that sport we must define what is brazilian jiu-jitsu because if you're talking about the art the art of jujitsu was not created in brazil it comes from japan and even in japan this question of who created jiu-jitsu is a very difficult one to answer human beings like to find a creator to things they want to have a definitive history where you can say this is the creator this is how the art was created so at one point when chinese culture was very popular in japan they wanted to give credit to a chinese priest ching gen pin who came to japan and taught to three japanese masters and they claimed that that's how jiu jitsu was created later with a more nationalistic movement in the 19th century and in the 20th century they wanted to move away from the chinese influence and say that jujitsu was purely japanese but when we look at animals when we look at different species we see already jiu jitsu move so jiu jitsu in general in my mind is a product of the human spirit and even a product of how we move and how we we use our anatomy to fulfill the instinct of self-preservation which all of us are born with so you would say that it's almost or fully instinctual i wouldn't say fully it begins with our instinct and then our intelligence as human beings allowed us to organize it in different ways you have wrestling in almost every native culture in the world you can find it in africa you can find it in europe you can find it in the americas you can find it in the far east you can find it in the middle east you can find it everywhere particular styles of grappling and so these styles are a product i think of the human instinct but then they are organized and the human intelligence also becomes very important in their development yeah it's very interesting but i think this huge i would say huge discussion came about really because of the claim that was made here in the united states something that we often talked about as well in talking about the history of our lineage when we gave credit i think horion gracie through those gracie and action tapes he claimed that elio gracie was the creator of gracie jujitsu and many people thought that that was unfair to and then eventually over the years around our lineage it was accepted that the creators the co-founders the founding fathers of grace brazilian jiu-jitsu were the brothers but then a huge movement began to try to debunk that so who created brazilian jiu-jitsu once again we need before we talk about creation we must talk about definition what is gracie jiu-jitsu what is brazilian jiu-jitsu drake what is grace for you each purpose is chosen by the person who's going to practice and as time went by from the history and how he said jiu jitsu so instinctual going through japan and different parts of the world you see different purposes for the same art and many times because the purpose changes people want to define the creator for that purpose even though the art is very similar it comes all from the same place so there's always going to be people who are going to be trying to come in to debunk those uh those claims and that's where a nice discussion becomes yeah well becomes important i i agree but um i i also think talking about people i would um not all of them are professional historians but they act as historians and sometimes in talking to some historians i feel that the motivation also serves a specific a specific purpose i think either to sell books or to always raise a question i think that as a historian it's important to to raise questions and to to try to create a problem so that you can offer a solution i think all of that is happening right now yeah a lot of agendas a lot of agendas exactly so um we respect and we have talked about in in different episodes uh about the history and about the importance of of jigoro kanu the founder of kodokan judo but if you say and often historians say no jujitsu in brazil is just a copy of kodokan judo how would you respond to that well first we must define what is judo people say jigoro kano created judo i was reading some books written in 18 in the 1890s okay but what is kodokanjura are you talking about the throws and i say kodokan judo because the word judo there is evidence now that it was used before but then jigoro khan was born and jigged admitted that right that he didn't want to create a new name because he didn't feel that what he was teaching was new he learned that from his teachers and he organized the teaching methodology so that's the point that's the key word that's the key word methodology if you're gonna code if you're gonna define kodokan judo as a teaching methodology then yes you could have kind of created that but a lot of people misunderstand that when you say jigoro created kodokanjuro what they think is he created the the osotogari the hook the large outside reap throwing technique or he created oh gosh when you say elio gracie created grace's jujitsu oh so he must have invented the triangle one time we received uh i think this is back in our sunny isles location for those of you that want to know about our different locations in the history of valente brothers i think episodes one two and three we talk about that but um that's between 1998 and 2002.
correct and i remember receiving an email of a soldier who had trained with us i believe and he used the triangle choke in iraq to defend himself i remember that in a very close encounter situation hand-to-hand combat situation and he sent us the email asking us to please forward the message to grandmaster edu for having invented the triangle choke that he used to save his life yeah thank please thank him for inventing the triangle choke which saved my life i remember that yeah today people in brazil even in brazil and i think around the world think that the word you know in brazil the pronunciation is often jiu jitsu jujitsu is a brazilian or is a portuguese word yes so there is a lot of misinformation and confusion correct so the history is important but again methodology so what is the brazilian jiu jitsu do you believe there is a defined brazilian jiu jitsu methodology today that you can point at and say everybody follows i don't think so i think that there is a culture correct right then we can try to describe that culture but there's no organization like we see that jaguar khan did in japan for judo correct and we could also say that elio gracie did in brazil together with his brother carlos for jiu-jitsu but i think what joaquin meant so is the culture of brazilian jiu jitsu that you'd refer to is that grand master elios in carlos grace that was a culture that began around i would say late 60s early 70s we can point as the beginning of the culture and the culture that continued and that culture changed over time so you went through some periods that uh you could describe it being one way and as time went by that culture continues to change and maybe we'll continue to change it forever yeah it's a more maybe loose culture that is lifted by the people who are practicing it exactly but even though judo maintained more of jigoro kanu's culture we cannot say that the culture of judo today is the culture that jigoro kano created i agree even the teaching methodology but there's still a lot more left over than in bjj and bjj and i think i think professor peter is historian so is professor g in that sense and you guys can elaborate on that but i think that when you have a methodology when you have a culture that you can actually set in books and and write about it that change is going to be more of a systematical change and i think the change in judo is one that you can point out you know time by time and specifically how it changed where the culture in jiu jitsu because it's more loose and there was no methodology put in place that change happens more from necessity and from situations that i think there's no uniformity and that's an interesting analogy the fact that you don't have books written on the methodology allows for change to happen because in a more loose way because we know and that's a very serious problem today for most historians exactly what you said most historians today they assume many times what the culture was of grand master carlos and annu yes what the culture was inside the original academia gracie because there's no material really to to research yeah they look at bjj today and they think that's what elio gracie was doing in the 1950s so joaquin when you said there was no methodology yes in brazilian jiu jitsu but we know because we learned from grand master edu himself grand master edu had a very very specific and organized methodology and culture not just in regards to jiu jitsu but of course through his brother carlos there was a whole system even of nutrition and lifestyle so professor pedro what happened what was the disconnect first i think that there is a methodology to bjj there is if you look across the board at how bjj schools operate how the classes occur with the warm-ups and then the position of sparring a few techniques are cut and then yeah what we had even in the academia gracie which today is known as grace umaita correct the concept of the open mat that's something that today is a strong part of bjj schools that is something that happens across the board so you can call that a methodology or a culture right a culture and a teaching a way of teaching yeah right and so i think that it is a culture or a methodology in it of itself maybe not having a methodology is the methodology exactly yes it's hard to find define like a uniform organized uniformity but yeah exactly it's it's loose it's and that's what the methodology is and i think there are their reasons for that based on their objectives but i think that's the main point that we need to make are we talking about techniques who created techniques or are we talking about who created a teaching methodology if we're going to talk about methodology then yes let's give credit to shigoro who created a specific methodology and the practitioners of judo have an article that that was written by shidachi who was a secretary of the bank of japan at the time in 1892 presenting judo jujitsu in europe and he said that most students of jigoro kanu of the kodokan at that time were between the ages of 10 and 20 years old the vast majority so jigoro kano's method was was geared for young men for education for school age children for education that was his objective it was part of the educational system of japan grand masters was a educator that was his main objective and so there are some particularity particular features of that style that are designed for that purpose for kids for education i think that if we're going to give credit to shigoro kano as being the creator of kodokudo and judo and i think that's fair then we can say that the gracie brothers carlos and elio created a teaching methodology that was utilized by them when they were actively teaching which is not kodokan judo not kodokan there are similar techniques many similar techniques again techniques or methodologies exactly just like let me just make this point for the historians out there who are listening to us as we believe and we have evidence already that points that out that shiguro kano also used techniques that existed already absolutely maybe a variation he or his students helped develop maybe just like many variations that always happen happened in brazil as well so with technique we go back to the instinctual yes creation which is very hard to point out to pinpoint i think to anywhere yes right yeah but when we talk about a teaching methodology then you could give credit and if you're going to give credit to one you got to be able to give credit to the others the great judo teacher in europe in england founder of the buddha a long time in london for a long time it was the biggest jiu-jitsu judo school outside of japan when describing the history of jiu-jitsu talks about the fact that if you look at the earliest records of history you already find evidence of techniques that resemble jiu jitsu yeah and he credits different places in the world like egypt like germany persia yes so you find in europe you'll find in africa you find everywhere techniques that look alike because human beings using their instincts are going to come up with similar solutions now there's something unique about japan is the fact that the chinese philosophy of yielding rather than dominating my strength was very popular at the time and they had a big influence on jiu-jitsu even the word jujitsu means just that so this idea of not using strength this idea of using your opponent's strength but once you start competing and wrestling as bjj is a form of jacket wrestling you could say that element of yielding is lost but this philosophy that you mentioned coming from japan of yielding to put it in various things coming from china exactly that's what i was going to say i miss uh said what i was gonna ask you i was gonna say coming from china my question is exactly that doesn't it come can't you find already origins in india you might i think it was not the technique because that's a good question and that's jujitsu from india and we know that there's we haven't found any direct evidence connecting india to to jiu-jitsu yes and and even the word jiu-jitsu means flexible and it comes from the the chinese spear that they use in battle when you had great quality wood the spears were made of wood this wood would be flexible and if the wood was of inferior quality it would break very easily and so the idea is that the rigid breaks easier so if it's too too rigid it breaks and if it's flexible and yielding it's it is actually stronger now is there a chance that around that time those techniques were being practiced in india i don't think well talking about human instinct exactly similar arts wrestling could have been practiced but there's no evidence that those techniques were brought no to china and to japan even though it could be but if the instinct was happening it was also happening in india and that's something that many times is very difficult in the historical conversation is that if something i believe in a more empirical way if you don't have evidence it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist correct but at the same time i think that it's fair to say that every culture has its own wrestling style and that jiu jitsu is the wrestling style of japan was it influenced by other cultures possibly probably i would even say but it doesn't it's still a japanese art and i agree i think it's fair to say okay so but let's move then to brazil because yes the discussion then became very heated many times among the brazilian jiu jitsu community among even the gracie family trying to create a separation which our father who lived many years around carroz he disagreed with but who created was it who's more important there wasn't you know a book like you said defining all of this written by them but how would you respond to that question well i don't think that we should ever get into this argument of elio is more important than carlos they were two brothers you know and we are brothers we are very united and we don't like when people start saying wait was it pedro was it ghee who was more important if somebody asks you who is more important between the three of you that if somebody asks me i would never answer that question and if i do i'm going to give you guys credit because i see how hard you guys work for everything that we do and the success that we have could not happen without you guys so this idea was carlos more important was they were both important they complemented each other very well well we worked together of course you started working here by yourself so naturally you are more important you see but but i would like to ask you carlos started he was the one that had access to maida's academy and he was the oldest brother carlos is what 11 years older was 11 years older than his youngest brother eru gracie but of obviously did not create something as a white belt no no so if you want to give kahulus credit for something it was many years later same applies to elio were both of them working together yes until throughout their whole lives they always work together in different roles but they always work together the thing is that a lot of people who are alive today were only around the gracie brothers when they were much older carlos and elio were very healthy and lived very long lives so when we talk about how was the relationship between carlos and elio in the 30s and what influence did carlos have in the 30s what influence did carlos have in the 40s in the 50s now we're already talking about carlos in his 50s and then in the 60s he's already in his 60s now carlos there's no question that we can define the roles a little bit carlos was more of a visionary he was the mentor elio was more on the mat but i think that both roles are important and i don't think we say oh because elio was on the mat then the technical aspect was more earlier yes but would he be able to do the things that he did without the backing of his brother and the philosophical support of his brother and the mentorship of his brother probably not so i don't think the separation and trying to see who was more important or no it was elio who created this it was carlos who created that i think they work together and in different ways but i think like our father always said it wasn't carlos it wasn't elio it was the brothers and when the brothers what carlos but what the brothers were responsible for the creation of a school okay a school a school that had a very particular teaching methodology okay when was this created when was this because carlos was a student of maida of at least maya the school yes that we can say for sure and then he moves to different places in brazil and he establishes a school with a partner so let me say something so was mostly teaching young men and kids in japan yes when jiu jitsu comes to the west successful men and women older become very curious and express a desire to learn for example president teddy roosevelt yes and so the japanese who brought jiu jitsu west started adapting and developing a methodology to teach these people yes i think first they were using mostly jigoro kano's methodology and i think people were getting hurt all the break falls all the exercises things that will be great in school for children children children we can put them to spa day one and they're very flexible and but not very good for older people and so i think the japanese started doing that with some success but i really do think that the gracie brothers and we know that carlos in the 30s was teaching people in brazil with great success and attracting very very important students to his school and then elio gracie in the 50s continued that and i'm sure that he adapted and he improved and he he modeled a methodology but we can say that the curriculum the way that they were teaching is very particular to them and i think that it's fair to say that they had a that they created just like jaguar created his teaching methodology that they created their teaching methodology so when did that happen would you say based on start search started in the 1930s it's a process when did we create the vb method in 1999 you wrote the first curriculum and we have been but we cannot dating it since then yes we can i'm just asking you these questions because this is what many times we we read about and we hear different people trying to understand and others also trying to attack this uh theory or this our history yeah so i'm i'm actually trying to get it so you because we cannot ignore what happened between 1993 and 1999 you're defining the starting point of valenti brothers method when we created the curriculum i don't know when the 36 lesson curriculum of the academia gracie was initially used i don't know we have not been able to pinpoint that date have we found that curriculum anywhere else no we have not so when was that curriculum created we don't know maybe some evidence will come up at some point but we just don't know we know that the gracie brothers were teaching jiu-jitsu a japanese art with a particular method and we know that that was happening in the 30s but we don't know exactly how they were teaching but we know that in the 1950s and we have even professors in that school still alive like jean beard when we had a chance to talk to grandmaster about this there was a very particular system which is not no longer used today by the way so it's not the jujitsu that's being taught today in brazil that is not the jiu jitsu that was taught in the 1950s so if you're going to call ello grace the creator of a teacher of the creator of a teaching methodology that teaching methodology is no longer in use in brazil that's very interesting but hold on so the 36 lesson program which then many years later i would say even in the 90s became the 40 lesson program which gave origin to the 27 lesson program that we started using for group classes which was unique and we had the approval of gremesteradio to do that we have talked about that also in previous episodes which gave also which originated from that originated different curriculums that are used today right including gracie university the combatives so that you don't know when it started the 36 lesson program no they were already teaching the 30 uh a 36 lesson program in the 1930s because we have seen newspaper ads from the 1930s promoting a 36 lesson program so we cannot credit elio gracie for that self-defense the classic program without crediting carlos gracie at least i think it's fair to say that but we don't know if it was carlos gracie that learned it from someone but if it was correct but there's no question that that was that elio gracie because he just spent so much more time on the mat than everybody else that he probably was instrumental in polishing that curriculum and continuing to develop that curriculum i don't think the 36 lesson curriculum that was taught in 1930s was the same one that was taught in the 1950s and that's why i asked you if it was carlos and edu can we say it was carlos and edu then together for how long were they working together because grand master eddie we know that from the 1930s until the 19 actually into the 2000s never stopped teaching and adapting and modifying this curriculum to a certain degree we know even of techniques that he modified already in the nineteen nineties because of students of his and trying to make them understand better so as far as methodology curriculum techniques is it fair to give both edwin college the same level of credit i don't want to get into that discussion i'm sorry if we're trying to say same level so ali needs a little bit more carlos i i don't think that's now can we say that both carlos and elio and what the academia gracie was at the time was until that time the most successful school to teach successful men women at a later age that we have ever seen in the history of that we have evidence of yes buddha did not do that i don't think they did it to the level of the academia grace because of the private classes and because of the system that they had in that school i i wasn't there based on the evidence that i have and that i have seen i don't think it's the same we have actually journals from the president teddy roosevelt who trained so they had access the japanese had access to the highest level students if we want to talk about that but teddy roosevelt talking about how he got injured and how it was very rough and difficult for him to to continue practicing so that was an issue that right through history we have evidence that people getting hurt under that style especially people in that age it was an issue and i think that the gracie brothers they mitigated that issue but the gracie brothers so carlos and elio what about george and what about the other brothers at one point worked with them as well i think in that sense we we can say that their role was very limited because they only spent their few years and then they left and they followed their elio and carlos were always together to the end till carlos retired but carlos was not teaching but i don't think that's fair because he was doing other things that were so important well maybe he was guiding in that form so i was of course instigating you and i i think i i wanted this to really be clear for our audience i think that what carlos did was just as important but he was not on the mat as long as ellie was that's that's the fact we have to to agree and we have to understand right but what jiu-jitsu did for us was so much more than what we got on the mat correct that i think that and i think now you understand where i was trying to get to that without kahalu's contribution psychological therapeutical nutritional we would not even have a small percentage of the benefits that we have today and that we now have the ability to try to transmit to our students yeah and as we as we're discussing this now what comes to mind and this is just a theory but a theory based on someone who has been around this for a long time and talking to our father and reading the newspapers i spent so many hours reading the newspapers of the time i think that there's no question that carlos had the vision before elio of developing this adapted style for older people it was being done before him absolutely but i think he had the vision that was okay let's focus on this and he started that we know that he was going to people's homes and teaching them teaching their kids he taught very important people in brazil carlos before and master eddie would tell us this oh that was before my time carlos was the one teaching them and actually this is very interesting their first school with the brothers the one that edu started actually training which is it was in their house yes was was a mix there were the privates for this this new style of introducing jiu jitsu or this adapted style of introducing jiu jitsu to to all students but they were also focusing on professional fights yes which is maybe connected to the early days of jujitsu in brazil yeah i think as carlos gracie he he was a fight promoter fight promoter and he felt that the best way to promote his school was through professional fights and then eventually there was a moment maybe almost a decade where they were not teaching in a school carlos gracie moved to sierra correct edu gracie got married there was a little bit of a hiatus but i think that that was an important time because i think elio gracie was talking about the 40s no 40s there were no more group classes because he was teaching in his living room and at that point i think he really worked on developing that 36 lesson curriculum i think it's a theory but then when carlos came back carlos came back and he opened with elio the official academy we could say really the golden era of jiu jitsu and brazil in the 1950s that point really showed that there was a difference as far as the objective of the school it was no longer at least when it started it was really geared for the application of this method self-defense program students came in edu gracie was the manager the the the operational manager of the school carlos gracie was more of the mentor the investor private classes but i think we can from this we can also see the importance of carlos everybody knows of course how much i see but let me make this point because everybody knows how much i think elliot was important but think about this during the 40s when carlos was in sierra very little was happening elio had no fights and he was teaching private classes in his in a small room in his apartment when carlos comes back 1950 immediately he already has two fights against caribe and against hazard maya in 51 he fights kato and kimura and 52 a huge school is open so when they're working together big things happen and their promotional strategy was through fighting yes they lived and died by the sword of fighting and so i think that yes it's a combination it's a it's a great synergy between the two brothers i think that that allowed for this to grow yeah it's a a great demonstration of unity you know between two brothers but it's a combined effort yes it's a combination of different roles and and that's why my theory i slightly disagree as i don't have yet the necessary evidence it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as we just said but i think that to say that they created carlos created a methodology i'm not sure if that can be but who created them the one that was used because we know how that school was organized and how they had such a particular teaching methodology with the curriculums the way elio gracie really polished that the way of attacking but the pedagogy but that's why i think that's more elu in my opinion carlos was more the lifestyle so i i would say they created a lifestyle they created a way a way they created a way that includes a training system of jiu-jitsu it includes a nutritional system it includes even a behavioral er system as well but don't you think that the concept of the type of student and the way to teach and the the the guidance of building a curriculum for that specific group of people that grammatically used to talk about that were the ones that needed jiu jitsu the most that could all have come from carlos and elio being brilliant as he was of an instructor on the mat and carlos oh you know ellie always spoke about how carlos values his ability on the mat said you're going to be the one in charge of doing that for sure but the concept is still coming from carlos and it shows the importance of both brothers and many times carlos even maybe feeling that elio had more of an ability of doing that on the mat and giving him that that duty because we can always find a way to point back in history on how something has been done before and and because of that try to debunk you know the creation of a methodology our adele used to like a quote from the famous uh french chemist nothing is lost nothing is created everything is transformed and so you could always go in those lines no for sure yeah but what i we're not gonna know for sure if we don't see if we if we could have access to how carlos gracie was teaching a private class when elio gracie first started practicing then we would know we don't have don't we know a little bit no well how carlos grace we know a little bit carlos elio gracie told me that carlos would be watching his um students run the program pass out program with the student that means what pascal programmer he was going through techniques so so and what we know as well is that that school that was created established in 1930 i believe yes september 7 1930 yes independence day yes that's why we don't forget brazilian independent brazilian independence day so there's an article and in that article the the head instructor of that school donato he talks about a scientific system of an organized system so so then he's showing the wacky got time and then we have to so then when we talk about the creator of this method we have to talk about donato yes and then we have so hold on but we don't know where but hold on so that's why i think that if we differentiate rows we have different rows drachino vb tactical yeah but it's the valente brothers correct system you know you have spearheaded the historical research you have spearheaded many times even the curriculum development right so we do different things and i think it's okay for us to define that as as as as students of the art and so that we have even something that's more evidence-based than just say the brothers or the family all of us no but we all did it no then it's it's it almost seems like a a royalty or uh but it is the three of us it is i think the construction of the school is a great example you used to bug me all the time to let's find a property let's find a property let's build a school let's talk to the contractor this and that but when it actually came time to get into the construction of the school i was involved much more but you have to stay credit through you know that work also yeah i'm delegating so then was was was delegating i i understand that he delegated he did that and that's why sometimes even maybe younger generations have a hard time understanding that he delegated and ali was the one because let me just try to explain my point if we're going to say that kahulus did develop the program then we have to talk about donate but in the same way if we say about l we have to talk about carlos there's a difference i'll tell you what the difference is elio had access to this program just like cajols had access to this program when did carlos we know stop actively teaching jiu jitsu on a day-to-day basis on a day-to-day basis because we know he was teaching our father's friend the dentist olympia so at some point much later in life yeah so so he would teach classes it's not like he completely abandoned got it but so then yeah but when when did he stop teaching there's no question if you're going to say okay because that's the point i think the success no go go back to my questions successes go to both but you can't what's your question when did carlos delegate the teaching roles right i think i think it was probably when did he stop wearing the kimono on a daily basis it was probably a process but i think grandmaster elio would say that as soon as he started taking a more active role carlos stepped back and started dedicating himself more to the promotion of the fight the the the management of the school and eventually and also tradition and all those things so there's no question that once carlos was very active on the mat before elio and so travel in brazil just that we have a little bit of an idea of time that's spent well the thing is that in the 30s elio was more active already but then in the 40s carlos went to seattle and we know that carlos was teaching jiu-jitsu that's when he met pedro materio in the 50s we know that was first training with carlos so carlos was also fortunate he never stopped teaching but he was always teaching less than elliot was more active so so so then you credit so so then did did elio also develop the the nutritional regimen because he was also helping i think that it's a good question yeah it's a great question so you know was he was he a part of the process yes yes but yes yes i think that he did so then carlos and nellie deserve the equal credit for the diet we're not saying equal like i don't think they have different roles like we have different roles i think it's important i think it's okay that it's just that the discussion out there is becoming very technical let me explain the point i think it's perfectly okay for us to say this was elio's role this was carlos's role that's fine yeah that's what i'm trying to organize what i don't like is when you say oh no but elio was the one by himself who did this and carlos was the one buying for sure that's the point but they have they had they did not do the same thing so i but i like you know maybe i'm biased because of our relationship as brothers but i like the sound of carlos and the brothers did it together oh for sure it's great and i think they deserve as i said i believe that both deserve credit as being the founding fathers of this lifestyle of this way of teaching and living jiu jitsu for sure and the thing is that elio has one big merits which is lasting longer but obviously if you talk to all the people who were around the school in the 50s the academy in the 50s they're all going to say elio was the one ellie was teaching all the time carlos i never even saw him in a kimono he would only come in dressed in a suit and and he was not teaching but then if we go and we talk to the people in the early 30s what would they say they probably would say eddie was a kid carlos the one who was teaching and was so yeah but we're talking but that's the question and that's really the debate is it a style is it a technique is it a method so let's let's now go forward okay let's go forward let's try to see if we can have a little bit more of uh of definitive yeah definitive answer as far as bjj bjj because bjj definitely did not exist before just like the sport of judo the rules of judo those who are developed when we talk about basketball was was the act of throwing a ball in a into a net net into a hole into a bucket did that start with mr smith name and name is smith i forgot his first name now did that start with him i don't think so no football the concept of kicking a ball into a goal you had a chinese game that was very similar in others what defines basketball football volleyball were the creation of rules that have changed through time slightly yeah when you ask when was basketball created they're not talking about people just throwing a ball into a basket they're talking about that sport based on the creation of a set of rules yes so bjj today referred to as bjj started with the creation of those rules when did that happen 1960s who was the president of that federation elio grace who was the chairman of that federation carlos gracie so it's fair for us to say that carlos and gracie are the creators of bjj even though they delegated yes many of um the attributions in that process to figures like francisco yes grand master francisco mansour graham grandmaster and i think we also have to mention mr elsoon yes yes those were instrumental and because even if you look at what happened with the creation of the federation and the creation of bjj of sport jiu jitsu they were departing the gracie brothers were departing from many of their of the principles that they had sustained for so many years for example they were against points both of them they were against points they felt that a match could only be decided via submission and if it was not it should be a draw that's a point that they sustained for many years and then it changed other aspects also changed with the creation of the federation the belt coloring as we discussed in the in the previous episode episode 10 10 about the belts elio gracie gave several interviews criticizing the colored belt system multiple colors and the federation established just that so even though they were probably not the mentors of that sport they should be giving cred given credit because they were as you said the president and the chairman of that federation yeah and later we know graham australia disagreed with the sport focus that maybe it was something he did not anticipate or he did and that's why he resisted for so long but he just witnessed how it took over the objective and the the the practice of jiu-jitsu yeah i think he felt that it was possible to do both and then eventually he realized that the promise was that both were going to take place but that the aspects the fighting aspects of jujitsu the philosophical aspects of jiu jitsu were being relegated and that only the sport jiu jitsu was becoming the specialization and the focus and he didn't like that and he removed himself from that federation and from the sport jiu jitsu world but he was the one who started it now and with the creation of the the federation that created a new sport yes that sport created a new style yes right yes with as we spoke earlier with or without a methodology for that style right so these schools that teach today for that purpose of that sport in brazil and all over the world they teach a new style that's called bjj okay let's define style again two people grappling on the floor trying to apply chokes arm locks the techniques for the purpose of the competition for those rules and for you know getting becoming better in that competition it's completely different than someone using jiu-jitsu for self-defense for survival for everything but don't you think that jiu-jitsu went through changes you know at one point it was used for the battlefield with body armor then it was used it can be used for many different things so i don't think it's a new okay what is style well because then judo is a style jiu-jitsu is a style but grandmaster ellie was not practicing for that style for that purpose yeah and which creates a style okay even though he's because because he is a new sport hold on so what is it then when two individuals are practicing that's a sport that's a sport but they're still using arm locks and chokes just for a different purpose and arm locks and jokes define jiu-jitsu no because you can find it in catch wrestling and other styles as well so so then what is it i think i think joaquin has a point yeah because if you create a sport which is a sport that did not exist before now the origins of that sport you can tie and i'm sure you can do that with basketball you can do that with soccer you can do that with everything right but it is a new sport is part that did not exist before and that once that sport was created it took off and then you have schools all over brazil and all over the world that teach with that purpose and and and some will say that they'll teach for both but many nowadays are very fair in saying that we're not practicing this for self defense our only purpose is to teach someone to become better at brazilian jiu jitsu and to win tournaments okay so let me say something based on so let's use your theory which i think is valid and is and many people defend this correct that it's a new but i think i think we can give credit to elio grace and carlos gracie for the creation of pjj as a sport but we should not give them credit for the creation of the style that jacquin is referring to two different things well hold on the style yes yes for the style yes or no like yes for the style i agree you should not give them credit yes you agree not yes i understand no no hold on yes i agreed that you should give them credit for the creation of that style because they created the sport but they didn't create the style they didn't they didn't change in their way of because when you say a style you're because but because saw where that was going and chose to to jump out of the ship so he didn't create the style he kept doing jiu jitsu the same way did it change his way of practicing jiu jitsu well i wasn't alive at that time so when i would talk to green master right about this he would talk you know really with a lot of resolve and and conviction about the problems of that but you know you study more than i do in the 1960s and 70s when the competitions began was he dedicated in trying to teach students and and his sons and everything in being able to win those tournaments with that purpose i think he felt that his style would still be able to win those tournaments i think that was the conflict yeah i think for you know just from my opinion with everything that i've seen i think for a period of time he did go that way and that's exactly the reason why he waited but let's define the style okay now the stronghold the culture i think that was not but the style yes yeah i i think that there's definitely a change and there's definitely a development that happens in every sport i think through the development of a space what i was going to say you will develop techniques strategies in that respect i think that's a great topic for another podcast the development the evolution was it an evolution was it a change for sure and we can talk about about um about carson grey so we can talk about modern bjj practitioners even though we don't follow it too much but i think to to conclude this podcast we should talk a little bit about the lineage of brazilian jiu-jitsu and i'll ask you this professor pedro is it fair for practitioners today teaching today to skip el gracia in the line no in the lineage absolutely not does that exist so if you have a picture of which is very difficult not to to actually organize that but if you have a picture many people like to do that of if you want to start with some people start even with khan when then jump to my that's already problematic right we find that even unfair possibly from mayida from kanu jigoro kano to maida and then from maida to kahalush that's also problematic but then as it gets closer to us then we have a lot more is that not fair because as we discussed through this whole podcast they work together and especially we know that elio gracie had a very active role in teaching these um great masters who became masters later younger generation carlson grace of their pictures elio gracie was very proud of the fact that he taught carson not taking away carlos is merit and raising calves and teaching him as well but edo gracie would say i have several pictures of carson and i on the mat and me teaching carson and kimono so how can you remove elio gracie from that lineage and castle is the oldest one so the ones who came after that even less so it's completely unfair but but going back to that i'm just going to make a quick point here i think when we talk about teaching methodologies we can pinpoint creators even though they're using information that already existed based on authors yeah that's a better word but when we talk about style weekend even the what joaquin was saying about the style of bjj you there is there is a set of rules and organically people start practicing and adapting for that yeah some like to pass the guard more some like play the guard more some like to use throws more some like to pull guard more they find specific ways to adapt to the to the point system like somebody's going to pass your guard if i turn to my knees and i avoid the hooks i can't stop the points and and that just and that's why i used to have towards the end of his life really went back to focusing on jiu jitsu for survival self-defense yes the philosophy the lifestyle every interview eru grace gave towards the end of his life he talked about nutrition he talked about his brother and that's why i believe that for us to really talk about both we need to be specific and that's one of my final points today is we need to be a little bit more specific we need to maybe help write a book we need other individuals too who have access to the information write a book even so that we can help certain historians who do not have a clue about what jiu jitsu is or the gracie style the original gracie style of jiu-jitsu is which in that respect what brazilian jiu-jitsu is so that's a contribution that we all have to work together and make for jiu-jitsu and i think when we're more specific when we're more educated about this i think it only contributes to the history and to the discussion i agree me too so any final thoughts so this concludes another great episode i hope all of you enjoy it if you do please share it with your friends don't forget to to like our video very important to like our video it really helps with uh the youtube process and making the video more accessible and subscribe to our channel 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